Brixton Liveable Neighbourhood and LTN schemes - improvements for pedestrians and cyclists
- Thread starter teuchter
- Start date
teuchter
je suis teuchter
While Streatham Wells does appear to have some significant issues that need to be sorted out, you can say this (and people did say this) for most of the other ones.
There was quite a lot of fuss about the Ferndale LTN for example. They made some changes to the scheme when it was made permamnent. It's not where I live so maybe there are still large numbers of people there who hate it, but it appears to me that things have pretty much settled down. Most people will forget about initial periods of disruption, I think, if things subsequently calm down and it turns out the sky isn't going to fall in after all.
Winot
I wholeheartedley agree with your viewpoint
Can confirm (I live over the road). I am also in the Brixton Hill LTN and the neighbourhood WhatsApp group has stopped griping.
thebackrow
Considerably more Brixton.
I'm not sure what relevance this has or what difference it makes to anything being discussed here.
But a good number of the current councillors weren't even in office at the time, and many others will have had no involvement in any of that. That the opposition to LTNs starts with angry meetings and quickly moves on to insulting councillors and officers must contribute to just how impressively ineffective their campaigns are. Once your position is that the councillors are corrupt weasels its no surprise that that they are going too avoid your meetings and ignore you.
And this idea that they have "a disdain for the views of local people" - that's exactly the same claim that the posh tories of Dulwich claim about their councillors too. But in both cases they've been democratically elected and people keep voting them in. The councillors themselves live in the borough - they are local people.
Bus Stopped
Active Member
I don't think New Labour councillors are likely to "engage" much more than the Tories. Even if everyone was nice and polite. And for the record I think they have been weaselly on various issues (especially housing and libraries), but in general I'm against angry and insulting meetings. I have also seen Lambeth New Labour councillors be angry, and insult people on many occasions.
Also great slight of hand there. Ah you say that New Labour councillors have disdain for working class communities so that makes you the same as posh Tories in Dulwich. Gotcha!! I mean grow up.
So what if they are local people, it still doesn't mean they can't and don't take a high handed approach. Thatcher was elected multiple times, it doesn't mean I have any more respect for her or what she did.
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Bus Stopped
Active Member
If things calm down and the disruption is stopped or isn't at a significant level, then why would anyone have a problem? The point is that at the moment this LTN is causing far, far more issues than the others, and after four months that still isn't changing. I think the other LTNs seem to have worked pretty well. This one, so far, hasn't at all.
Cat Fan
Cats and stats
The relevance is that the Lambeth leadership is out of touch and decision making is top down and not by community consensus
thebackrow
Considerably more Brixton.
you mean representative democracy
No. People not getting their personal way complain they’re not being listened to. Irrespective of politics or “class”
That’s very adult of you.
technical
stripey
I couldn’t agree more with your last paragraph. But saying that councillors have been ‘corrupted’ by helping implement what they said would do is hyperbole that is part of the problem.
If (when?) they change their mind, someone who voted for them on the basis of a local LTN could surely argue the same thing.
Bus Stopped
Active Member
Your condescending posts don't help debate but up to you. I think we are all aware of what representative democracy is, but that doesn't mean that 1) politicians can't be high handed and dismissive of people's needs and 2) that they are any more morally acceptable. Otherwise we couldn't complaint about Trump, Thatcher or any number of horrendous elected politicians.
teuchter
je suis teuchter
Well, I was indirectly resonding to this:
The point is, other LTNs have had problems, perceived to be intractable at the time, but they get sorted out and the anti LTN feeling (for most) fades rather than becoming entrenched.
To what extent the Streatham Wells one is really causing "far far more issues", I don't know. Obviously you are going to be much more highly aware of issues in schemes which affect areas you need to travel through regularly.
Streatham Wells will be a bigger sell than Ferndale ever was. You can walk to the tube from Ferndale. And there are great bus routes nearby. Also, if memory serves correctly, it’s quite flat. I’d imagine that Ferndale would have a younger population than Streatham Wells, so fewer school runs, fewer doctor’s appointments.
Streatham Wells was a great opportunity to get people out of cars and onto bikes and public transport. By launching it in November and not improving any local infrastructure, they’ve made sure that nobody will make those changes. Certainly not as the result of an LTN. They’ll just queue in their cars and curse and complain.
thebackrow
Considerably more Brixton.
This was the point CatFan made. As far as I’m aware no council in the Uk makes decisions by “community consensus”. Because it rarely exists. As LTNs have demonstrated. But it's probably likely on pretty much any issue you bring up.
The election system doesn't give us community consensus as a starting point - You’re never going to get that via FPTP elections, but for that matter not by PR either. Probably the closest is the second preference voting we had for the mayoral elections until the Tories removed it. And that hasn't stopped loud and vocal opposition to Mayor Khan.
If you elect leaders your decision making process is ultimately top down.
or the perfect time. The weather is improving now. People have become frustrated but it’s a great time to but a bike and start cycling. tweak some bits of the scheme to give buses more priority,
I’m only half serious but I don’t think the timing makes much difference at all.
Agent Sparrow
the age of slippers and migraines
I wasn’t going to post anymore on here as nothing new is being said
but this blatantly isn’t the case for a lot of people. Loads of people I know are nowhere near to taking up cycling for multiple reasons (traffic fear, perceived lack of fitness, impracticalities such as not being able to transport children* or disability issues). Some of those respect cyclists, some say “I wish I could”, but it would take more than a LTN to try. Others just don’t want to, or have negative perceptions of cyclists.Likewise many drivers have said they are reluctant to get the bus for x, y and z reasons.
I’m not passing judgement on the above (I’m thinking of people I like and respect) or saying that LTNs will change this, but a huge part of why people are upset is because they’ve got used to the extra convenience of driving, and cycling or public transport isn’t a perceived viable alternative. And for some they really don’t have a workable alternative.
*yes I know there are ways to transport children on bikes. I’m an experienced cyclist and I wouldn’t consider some ways of doing this.
Maybe I’m naive. But I think that if enough make that initial effort to get started, they’ll stick at it, meaning fewer cars on the road, which means the disabled and incapable don’t have it so bad either.I wasn’t going to post anymore on here as nothing new is being said
Likewise many drivers have said they are reluctant to get the bus for x, y and z reasons.
I’m not passing judgement on the above (I’m thinking of people I like and respect) or saying that LTNs will change this, but a huge part of why people are upset is because they’ve got used to the extra convenience of driving, and cycling or public transport isn’t a perceived viable alternative. And for some they really don’t have a workable alternative.
*yes I know there are ways to transport children on bikes. I’m an experienced cyclist and I wouldn’t consider some ways of doing this.
As it stands, it appears nobody has made any change. Just started to drive the long way round.
If LTNs don’t spark that change, how do we do it?
I think that the Westminster should, for a start, abolish VAT on bicycles and bike safety equipment. And allow everyone to buy a bike prior to income tax, not just those with a company scheme.
Carrot is always better than stick.
Cat Fan
Cats and stats
The planned A23 redesign will introduce a segregated cycle lane from Streatham Hill to the intersection with S Circular.
I have much higher faith in that than any LTN, but of course these road redesigns are much more expensive, more disruptive and can't be funded by levying fines, so it's a slow process
teuchter
je suis teuchter
I think there can be an over-emphasis on cycling.
The primary aim should be to shift journeys from private cars to a combination of public transport and walking.
And it's not just about replacing each car journey from A to B with a walking/PT journey from A to B. There are lots of journeys where people go further by car than they would by other means, because it's made easy to do so. Replace some of the 1 mile drives to the supermarket with car parking, with a 10 minute walk to the local shop.
The primary aim should be to shift journeys from private cars to a combination of public transport and walking.
And it's not just about replacing each car journey from A to B with a walking/PT journey from A to B. There are lots of journeys where people go further by car than they would by other means, because it's made easy to do so. Replace some of the 1 mile drives to the supermarket with car parking, with a 10 minute walk to the local shop.
Cat Fan
Cats and stats
Nonsense, national government and the opposition use focus groups and leaking ideas to the media all the time to try to test ideas before implementing policy. Lambeth council is too secure in its huge majority so although they make a show of doing consultations they don't actually listen to residents in a meaningful way.
It's good you mention elections because they're coming up soon and I can see Labour losing some seats.
Maybe I’m being stupid, but would an LTN give sufficient motivation to someone living within it to stop using their car? Is that a primary aim?
They can still drive in and out (maybe just in a more inconvenient way) - & if the claim is that LTNs do not increase traffic on boundary roads then their car journeys should not be significantly adversely affected.
Their streets are nice and quiet but what’s the motivation for them not to drive - beyond the traffic being unbearable.
They can still drive in and out (maybe just in a more inconvenient way) - & if the claim is that LTNs do not increase traffic on boundary roads then their car journeys should not be significantly adversely affected.
Their streets are nice and quiet but what’s the motivation for them not to drive - beyond the traffic being unbearable.
Cat Fan
Cats and stats
You have hit the nail on the head. Some people who live near a filter might have slightly longer car journeys to get to some places, but it's not too much of a deterrent.
I think that the residents permit charges are more of a deterrent to driving because they are getting quite expensive. Same with ULEZ really and the general rising cost of insuring and driving a car.
teuchter
je suis teuchter
For certain journeys, yes.
teuchter
je suis teuchter
This kind of misses the point of how the idea of the equilibrium works.
(Assuming you don't reject the theory outright)
The reason traffic on boundary roads, overall, doesn't really increase, is that the level of traffic is determined by what drivers will tolerate. Once the traffic gets to a certain level, some drivers will just decide not to go there. That's the idea of "evaporation" and it's just the reverse process of extra capacity filling up if you provide it. You build another lane, potential drivers will realise it's there, start using it, and it'll fill up to a similar level of traffic as before and no-one gets anywhere any faster.
From the point of view of the person living in an LTN and deciding to make a car journey using a boundary road ... yes, the boundary road is not worse than it was before the LTN but the reason for that is that ultimately that that person and their neighbours cumulatively, are using it a bit less than before the LTN. If they start to use it a bit more, it gets a bit worse, and they'll tend to use it a bit less as a result. It's a kind of self regulating process and operates at a larger scale than one individual's decision-making so I can see why it might be kind of anti-intuitive and why some people have such a hard time accepting it.
BigTom
Well-Known Member
Yep. Where I live (kings heath in birmignham) has one of the highest concentrations of secondary schools anywhere in the UK (there are 4 mainstream plus an SEND within a 10-15 minute walk of the high street).
There has been a decrease in the number of parents dropping off children since the LTN was put in place and anecdotally this is parents within the LTN who used to drop off kids and go back home or on to work not doing the school run anymore and walking/making their kids walk themselves instead.
Those journeys and people popping to the shop are definitely local ones converting to walking as a result of the LTN.
Yes - see this as the case in Tulse Hill. It strongly discourages the really pointless journeys within the LTN. One of the most prominent antis used to drive to the bus stop on Brixton Hill!
Cat Fan
Cats and stats
When it's designed well then that is a great outcome.
I know I keep trashing Streatham Wells LTN, but Sunnyhill School, Hitherfield School and Dunraven School and I think most schools in Lambeth already have "school streets" (total ban on cars at pick up/drop off) set up to discourage driving, so the additional LTN restrictions are a bit more marginal
I know I keep trashing Streatham Wells LTN, but Sunnyhill School, Hitherfield School and Dunraven School and I think most schools in Lambeth already have "school streets" (total ban on cars at pick up/drop off) set up to discourage driving, so the additional LTN restrictions are a bit more marginal
thebackrow
Considerably more Brixton.
Actually, I think that's the wrong way around. School streets address a very specific problem - drivers clustered around school gates, idling and turning in the road when a mass of children are arriving or leaving. The experience of my local school street is that it has addressed that problem, but it's moved it c100m away to the end of the school street restriction where drivers idle on double yellow lines before turning in the road. (which is on a busy cycle route in both cases)
A school street means the driven kids have to walk 100m, and improves safety for all the others. The local LTN actually makes it more difficult for some of those parents to drive and will have been much more effective at reducing the number of children who are driven.
The Sudbourne school street might not be typical as there wasn't any through traffic around the school as its at a historic filter. But school streets don't enable safe walking or cycling trips to and from school (again, LTNs do that by calming a wide area) - they only address the area around the gates.
Cat Fan
Cats and stats
LBC have picked it up already
Mayor of London reveals changes coming to Streatham LTN 'ASAP' which is causing 'huge problems'
The Mayor of London has revealed changes will be coming to the Streatham Wells Low Traffic Neighbourhood which has seen huge delays to public transport and caused huge amounts of congestion.
www.lbc.co.uk
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