Brixton Liveable Neighbourhood and LTN schemes - improvements for pedestrians and cyclists

[teuchter]

Also the Lambeth statement that traffic fell on boundary roads in other LTNs should be examined carefully. It wasn't the case for Streatham Hill LTN and it definitely won't be the case for this one once the data comes in.

They are saying it dropped during the trial period, from an initial phase of additional congestion. Which as far as I know is true for all of the other LTNs.

 

[sparkybird]

How many cars does the A23 take?

I used to travel along Valley Road by car all the time and 10k cars sounds like a lot. I know the flow isn’t quite so spread, but I guess 10k per day is about 400 per hour. 200 each way. An average of 3 per minute in each direction. Which actually is quite similar to what I experienced when I used to drive that route.

Is adding 3, 6 or 9 cars per minute to the southbound carriageway of the A23 enough to cause the bedlam we have seen? And is removing them enough to free things up?

I think the LTNs were introduced without any consideration for additional public transport, road markings, traffic lights phasing etc, thanks to the abject incompetence of our council. But couldn’t some of these be tried before opening the LTN again?

Streatham High Road apparently is at 34K vehicles per day.
What's odd to me is that if the problems are due to the Streatham Wells low traffic neighbourhood (and the huge delays to buses are completely unacceptable) how come it hasn't been like this since the start, some 4 plus months ago? There must be other factors in play, surely?

 

[sparkybird]

That’s the biggest problem I have with these schemes, the council haven’t mitigated any of the impacts. Just imposed them in isolation.

In particular there hasn’t been any improvement in public transport. The P13 remains the only way to get through the Streatham Hill LTN. No different route has been introduced, no more frequency for the P13, no bigger bus. I’ve written to councillors who tell me TfL run the buses, not them, so there’s nothing they can do.

Likewise, for traffic light phasing, box junctions, I’m also hearing, although not from having written to them “That’s not the council, that’s TfL”.

If the council don’t have input into the levers which can make the LTN a success, should they do it in the first place?

All they have done is increase the number of Lime bikes which, to me, looks like corporate littering.

The buses like P13, 315 etc cannot be any bigger as they go through residential areas that have weight limits and tighter turns. 315 some one told me is unique in that it was designed specifically for its route.
TfL have told me that frequency won't be increased unless there is more demand.

 

[Smick]

The buses like P13, 315 etc cannot be any bigger as they go through residential areas that have weight limits and tighter turns. 315 some one told me is unique in that it was designed specifically for its route.
TfL have told me that frequency won't be increased unless there is more demand.

Well, as I’ve said from the start, a strong message has been delivered that we should not drive from Tulse Hill station to Streatham high road.

So why not run a double decker bus from the existing stop from the Co Op to Streatham, via Christchurch Road? It could go on to Norbury, Croydon or wherever. Or start somewhere else and come through Tulse Hill and finish at Streatham.

I see double deckers on Christchurch Road all the time, so that road is definitely suitable for the biggest of buses.

If the P13 can’t get bigger as a bus, why not run it more often?

It’s just a complete lack of joined up thinking.

And as for demand, it's a vicious circle. Run a poor service, so poor that nobody uses it, then justify that lack of use for not improving it. The P13 is usually packed to the brim whenever I have tried to use it. The only way to show an increase in demand is to have people show up and be unable to get on. And who wants to do that? Easier to hop in the car and drive to Streatham because a bus from Tulse Hill to Brixton and back up Brixton Hill is not realistic.

 

[Smick]

Streatham High Road apparently is at 34K vehicles per day.
What's odd to me is that if the problems are due to the Streatham Wells low traffic neighbourhood (and the huge delays to buses are completely unacceptable) how come it hasn't been like this since the start, some 4 plus months ago? There must be other factors in play, surely?

I can't believe that the extra traffic from Valley Road alone is enough to stuff the high road up. But it might be a bit of a butterfly effect, that there are unintended consequences to non Valley Road traffic that is having the impact.

This lady seems to suggest that it has been an issue that has started on 23rd October, she has it documented, and she seems to be intelligent and articulate.

 

[edcraw]

I can't believe that the extra traffic from Valley Road alone is enough to stuff the high road up. But it might be a bit of a butterfly effect, that there are unintended consequences to non Valley Road traffic that is having the impact.

This lady seems to suggest that it has been an issue that has started on 23rd October, she has it documented, and she seems to be intelligent and articulate.

Was she taking photos of the supposed lack of traffic before? She was the main force behind OneWandsworth and getting Wandsworth council to cave in on their and has been against all LTNs - also goes on about the World Economic Forum conspiracy so is really not someone I’d pay much attention to.

 

[thebackrow]

()

 

[Bus Stopped]

I get buses several times a week. From the very start it’s had a huge impact on buses. I don’t need data to know that, it’s obvious.

 

[thebackrow]

Likewise, for traffic light phasing, box junctions, I’m also hearing, although not from having written to them “That’s not the council, that’s TfL”.

That’s the sort of conversation which was needed prior to the implementation of the LTN. Rather than Lambeth saying “that road is TfL’s problem” and TfL saying “Lambeth make these changes on their own”.

That's the point of a trial. Changes to the road network are always going to cause disruption -there is a £350m project to massively enlarge the M25/A3 junction that's taking years to build. there are going to be huge delays while it's done. The A3 was completely closed last weekend as part of it. And after it's all done the experience of every other m25 road enlargement scheme has been that induced demand means the congestion it was meant to alleviate returns.

Traffic modelling is a guide but there are too many variables for it to be reliable which is why running trials makes sense. Behaviours take time to change so stuff does need time to settle down. It's pretty clear that congestion is worse now than it was when the trial started - that suggests there is another factor. It seems weird to me that the opposite lane seems almost entirely empty - my experience is that the A23 is always busy in both directions.

What I'd really agree with is that mitigations seem to happen too slowly. Even minor changes like moving a filter in the Ferndale LTN took a year or more. At the 3 or 6 month point if changes to the trial are needed then they should be ready to implement quickly. It shouldn't take many months further to try something different.

It is interesting that the anti lot are suddenly very interested in bus times just like they suddenly got interested in pollution etc.

and of course their only suggestion is 'suspend/cancel the whole trial' rather than looking for any mitigations that might help it to work better.

I used to travel along Valley Road by car all the time and 10k cars sounds like a lot. I know the flow isn’t quite so spread, but I guess 10k per day is about 400 per hour. 200 each way. An average of 3 per minute in each direction. Which actually is quite similar to what I experienced when I used to drive that route.

I think the usual rule of thumb is about 10% of traffic per hour at peak - so c1000 vehicles. There will be negligible traffic between 10pm and 7am so even taking out the peak hours the traffic volumes the rest of the time are still going to be over 400.

Lambeth follow Dutch guidance that a road needs under 200 in peak hour to be a comfortable cycle route without protected space. Lambeth (and TfL) are trying to create a network of safe cycle routes throughout London that's supposed mean no more than 400m between parallel routes. If you're going to reintroduce high volumes of traffic to Valley Road, how else could you create a north-south cycle route? OpenStreetMaps editors will put almost anything on there a a 'blue' cycle route - if they council has done as little as painting a few cycle symbols on the road.

But even OSM shows a big black hole that's nearly 4Km across between routes.

 

[Crispy]

What a mishmash that map is. Sometimes I find myself wishing that those bonkers 60s/70s road plans had been built so there was actually some street space to be reclaimed for PT and bikes.

 

[Smick]

That's the point of a trial. Changes to the road network are always going to cause disruption

I think the idea of the trail is bogus. The sooner we get used to the LTN the better because it is not going to be reduced or removed. I thought it was just there to placate naysayers until the benefits could be proven. But if it is also used as an excuse to hold back on the improvements to road networks and public transport, then they are just shooting themselves in the foot.

I think the usual rule of thumb is about 10% of traffic per hour at peak - so c1000 vehicles. There will be negligible traffic between 10pm and 7am so even taking out the peak hours the traffic volumes the rest of the time are still going to be over 400.

So peak is maybe 8-9.30 and 4.30 - 6? That means 3,000 at peak. 1,500 in each direction. 16 cars per minute at the highest.

Lambeth follow Dutch guidance that a road needs under 200 in peak hour to be a comfortable cycle route without protected space.

I heard that they have employed Dutch people to implement Streatham Wells LTN. Cycling in Streatham Wells is much more hilly than most places in the Netherlands.

 

[Bus Stopped]

I’m all for mitigations. But if you live in the LTN and use the bus network, saying that the LTN is making life far more difficult shouldn’t be dismissed. It’s all good and well people saying there should be mitigation but when will it happen?

The buses yesterday weren’t moving at all and I gave up counting at 50.

Greyhound Lane is now practically unusable in the mornings and on the rare occasion I drive for the school drop off the sat nav takes me on a massive detour via crown point on the way back.

I haven’t met a single person who lives in the LTN or any parents at the school who still support it. This isn’t the way to win people over to LTNs and green politics.

 

[Cat Fan]

I think the idea of the trail is bogus. The sooner we get used to the LTN the better because it is not going to be reduced or removed. I thought it was just there to placate naysayers until the benefits could be proven. But if it is also used as an excuse to hold back on the improvements to road networks and public transport, then they are just shooting themselves in the foot.

It is either getting reduced or removed or Labour councillors are going to lose their seats at the next election.

 

[Smick]

It is either getting reduced or removed or Labour councillors are going to lose their seats at the next election.

Maybe no bad thing (the loss of seats).

I am a traditional Labour voter, but I recognise nothing in our councilors of the Labour I have always supported. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

There needs to be an effective spread of parties in the council chamber.

Those councillors who were blowing their own trumpets at launch, taking selfies at the roadside etc are now conspicuously absent.

 

[sparkybird]

I can't believe that the extra traffic from Valley Road alone is enough to stuff the high road up. But it might be a bit of a butterfly effect, that there are unintended consequences to non Valley Road traffic that is having the impact.

This lady seems to suggest that it has been an issue that has started on 23rd October, she has it documented, and she seems to be intelligent and articulate.

You need to be taking a big pinch of salt with anything she says. Check out the rest of her twitter......

 

[technical]

Maybe no bad thing (the loss of seats).

I am a traditional Labour voter, but I recognise nothing in our councilors of the Labour I have always supported. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

There needs to be an effective spread of parties in the council chamber.

Those councillors who were blowing their own trumpets at launch, taking selfies at the roadside etc are now conspicuously absent. Bit melodramatic no? I get the frustration with the situation (whether it’s as a result of the LTN or not) but it’s a bit of a stretch to conflate traffic management schemes and corruption surely

Bit melodramatic no? I get the frustration with the situation (whether it’s as a result of the LTN or not) but it’s a bit of a stretch to conflate traffic management schemes and corruption surely

 

[PlasT]

Looks like the councillors are starting to change their tune slightly…

 

[Smick]

Bit melodramatic no? I get the frustration with the situation (whether it’s as a result of the LTN or not) but it’s a bit of a stretch to conflate traffic management schemes and corruption surely

It’s the latest in a long line of decisions which the councillors have taken without any regard for public opinion.

It’s just a consequence of a single party chamber. Any time in history that we’ve seen the same, those decision makers overstep the mark.

 

[edcraw]

It’s the latest in a long line of decisions which the councillors have taken without any regard for public opinion.

It’s just a consequence of a single party chamber. Any time in history that we’ve seen the same, those decision makers overstep the mark.

Polling suggests strong support for LTNs which is hardly surprising especially when car ownership is very low.

 

[Cat Fan]

Polling suggests strong support for LTNs which is hardly surprising especially when car ownership is very low.

Historically perhaps, but Streatham Wells LTN is exceptionally unpopular

 

[edcraw]

Historically perhaps, but Streatham Wells LTN is exceptionally unpopular

Doubt it - most against seem to be people that drive everyday which is a small fraction of people.

This thread is a good summary of the situation I think.

 

[Smick]

Polling suggests strong support for LTNs which is hardly surprising especially when car ownership is very low.

Absolutely, but I’d imagine that those in favour, which includes me, would hope for competent implementation.

Starting it in November, when curious cyclists are never likely to try cycling out, when fairweather cyclists have their bikes in their sheds for the winter, is incompetent.

And now the consensus is that it has negatively impacted buses. There has been no effort to improve bus routes or frequencies. There has been no attempt to have local roads, onto which traffic has been displaced, improved to cope with the extra traffic.

So now there are loads of pissed off people who are just trying to take the bus to work and the whole LTN may fail because nobody has been converted to cycling because of the weather.

A bunch of idiots have implemented it. I could have done a better job myself.

 

[Cat Fan]

Doubt it - most against seem to be people that drive everyday which is a small fraction of people.

This thread is a good summary of the situation I think.

Even that person thinks the LTN has been botched. Hardly a ringing endorsement!

Trust me as someone who lives in Streatham, SW LTN is about as popular as COVID-19 around here

 

[Bus Stopped]

Even that person thinks the LTN has been botched. Hardly a ringing endorsement!

Trust me as someone who lives in Streatham, SW LTN is about as popular as COVID-19 around here

As said earlier I don’t know a single person who is now in favour. Neighbours, parents at my daughter’s school, and estate WhatsApp. It’s as if they wanted to make bad feeling towards LTNs.

And the idea that sealing off more side roads will work is ridiculous. Hopton Road is now a nightmare in the morning, especially outside the primary school. But close that off and Streatham common south side will get even worse.

 

[PlasT]

Unless you close off every side street satnav will always find shortcuts.

The A23 is a key route south out of London. This traffic isn’t going to disappear. And key for local public transport. Clearly not functioning properly in either capacity at the moment. Are piecemeal LTNs along its boundary going to help?

Maybe Ringway 2 wasn’t such a bad idea.

 

[technical]

It’s the latest in a long line of decisions which the councillors have taken without any regard for public opinion.

It’s just a consequence of a single party chamber. Any time in history that we’ve seen the same, those decision makers overstep the mark

But that isn’t corruption

 

[edcraw]

it’s about how you make it work & lots of suggestions. Ripping it out and do noting shouldn’t be an option unless people are saying Wandsworth has no traffic issues since doing exactly that.

 

[edcraw]

But that isn’t corruption

Corruption seems to be doing things people don’t agree with for some people

 

[Winot]

Corruption seems to be doing things people don’t agree with for some people

After having been elected on a platform to do those things.

 

[Winot]

As said earlier I don’t know a single person who is now in favour. Neighbours, parents at my daughter’s school, and estate WhatsApp. It’s as if they wanted to make bad feeling towards LTNs.

They are against the LTN in its present form.