Brixton Liveable Neighbourhood and LTN schemes - improvements for pedestrians and cyclists

[teuchter]

Think it stems from this from LBC - the author is an active member of Lambeth LTN Watch and has been campaigning against LTNs from the very start.

Three mile bus journeys take two hours in low-traffic neighbourhoods with TfL blaming 'serious' delays on scheme

A new low-traffic neighbourhood (LTN) is causing such bad congestion that buses running along its boundary are taking up to two hours to travel less than three miles.

www.lbc.co.uk

Yes, but it refers to "data from TfL" (which it doesn't share the source of).

There must have been something released, either in some kind of regular report, or maybe the result of an FOI.

 

[edcraw]

Yes, but it refers to "data from TfL" (which it doesn't share the source of).

There must have been something released, either in some kind of regular report, or maybe the result of an FOI.

I think it’s from this account using www.bustimes.org. Without historic data it’s not very useful though.



Andrew Ellson of the Times seems to have run an article based on that first (paywalled) - he also writes a lot against 20mph zones.

The first lot of monitoring from the council is due to be published end of March / beginning of April I believe.

 

[Bus Stopped]

I commute on this bus route and don’t need data to know it’s got far worse and with much bigger delays. I’m currently sitting in a 109 and have just got to Wyatt Park Road. I hope I’m wrong but it appears to be jammed the whole way down. I suspect that’s the case as lots of buses are terminating early.

I don’t see how people can say this LTN is ok with this level of a negative impact on public transport.

Yes there are massive issues with single occupancy cars but that doesn’t really help if you’re a bus user and things have gone from being usually free flowing buses to massive delays.

 

[Bus Stopped]

Buses are lined the entire route. I’ve got off and walked and gone past at least 50 stationary buses.

Maybe there is another issue further down but that’s the point. There are always issues on that route. So it fluctuates between bad delays on the best days to total gridlock.

 

[PlasT]

Never mind single occupancy cars, plenty of single occupancy buses as well!

 

[Smick]

Buses are lined the entire route. I’ve got off and walked and gone past at least 50 stationary buses.

Maybe there is another issue further down but that’s the point. There are always issues on that route. So it fluctuates between bad delays on the best days to total gridlock.

Bearing in mind that the A23 is designed to take lots of cars and Valley Road isn’t, could the displacement from Valley Road onto the A23 really be responsible for such disruption.

I get the argument that, in the event of disruption on the main road, people were able to use back roads to avoid it and now compound issues.

But I can’t believe that the displaced traffic from Valley Road is sufficient to completely block the A23.

 

[edcraw]

It’s not great that the bus lane ends well before the south bound lights - it should continue across until it goes down to one lane.

 

[sparkybird]

I commute on this bus route and don’t need data to know it’s got far worse and with much bigger delays. I’m currently sitting in a 109 and have just got to Wyatt Park Road. I hope I’m wrong but it appears to be jammed the whole way down. I suspect that’s the case as lots of buses are terminating early.

I don’t see how people can say this LTN is ok with this level of a negative impact on public transport.

Yes there are massive issues with single occupancy cars but that doesn’t really help if you’re a bus user and things have gone from being usually free flowing buses to massive delays.

I'm sorry you've had some shit bus journeys. It's not right. SM has been full today of people saying that they decided to drive instead of get the bus because it's quicker. Without seeing the irony that they are then making the buses even slower and life harder for those who don't have a car as an alternative.
I feel quite depressed

 

[Cat Fan]

Bearing in mind that the A23 is designed to take lots of cars and Valley Road isn’t, could the displacement from Valley Road onto the A23 really be responsible for such disruption.

I get the argument that, in the event of disruption on the main road, people were able to use back roads to avoid it and now compound issues.

But I can’t believe that the displaced traffic from Valley Road is sufficient to completely block the A23.

Check out Valley road in person, or on Google maps satellite view.

It's a large, wide road which pre LTN had thousands of car trips through it a day.

Not having a strategy for the displaced valley road traffic or for when roadworks happen has really shot any pro LTN feeling in the foot. Basically everyone I know in the area is anti Streatham Wells LTN even if they are pro LTNs in general.

Obviously too late now but maybe they should have kept valley road open in peak times and had a smaller LTN on either side.

 

[Crispy]

I tend to agree.
In the abscence of dramatic changes to the A23 to prioritise buses, reopening Valley Road might be required.

 

[Bus Stopped]

Bearing in mind that the A23 is designed to take lots of cars and Valley Road isn’t, could the displacement from Valley Road onto the A23 really be responsible for such disruption.

I get the argument that, in the event of disruption on the main road, people were able to use back roads to avoid it and now compound issues.

But I can’t believe that the displaced traffic from Valley Road is sufficient to completely block the A23.

Yes as Valley Road took 10k cars a day. The change has been dramatic and happened since the LTN.

 

[Smick]

Yes as Valley Road took 10k cars a day. The change has been dramatic and happened since the LTN.

How many cars does the A23 take?

I used to travel along Valley Road by car all the time and 10k cars sounds like a lot. I know the flow isn’t quite so spread, but I guess 10k per day is about 400 per hour. 200 each way. An average of 3 per minute in each direction. Which actually is quite similar to what I experienced when I used to drive that route.

Is adding 3, 6 or 9 cars per minute to the southbound carriageway of the A23 enough to cause the bedlam we have seen? And is removing them enough to free things up?

I think the LTNs were introduced without any consideration for additional public transport, road markings, traffic lights phasing etc, thanks to the abject incompetence of our council. But couldn’t some of these be tried before opening the LTN again?

 

[Smick]

Check out Valley road in person, or on Google maps satellite view.

It's a large, wide road which pre LTN had thousands of car trips through it a day.

Not having a strategy for the displaced valley road traffic or for when roadworks happen has really shot any pro LTN feeling in the foot. Basically everyone I know in the area is anti Streatham Wells LTN even if they are pro LTNs in general.

Obviously too late now but maybe they should have kept valley road open in peak times and had a smaller LTN on either side.

It’s not wide enough for two cars to pass each other in opposite directions. You have to duck in between parked cars and wait for a gap. It only widens out between the mini roundabout and the common. And that stretch is still open.

 

[teuchter]

I tend to agree.
In the abscence of dramatic changes to the A23 to prioritise buses, reopening Valley Road might be required.

I bet it could be sorted with a redesign of the bottleneck section & associated junction. But of course someone would have to be willing to pay for it.

 

[Smick]

I bet it could be sorted with a redesign of the bottleneck section & associated junction. But of course someone would have to be willing to pay for it.

where is all the LTN fine money going to?

 

[Bus Stopped]

I'm sorry you've had some shit bus journeys. It's not right. SM has been full today of people saying that they decided to drive instead of get the bus because it's quicker. Without seeing the irony that they are then making the buses even slower and life harder for those who don't have a car as an alternative.
I feel quite depressed

Please don’t feel depressed. In general those in favour of LTNs and the wider green movement are on the right side of history, its why I’m a reluctant critic of even the current one as right wingers will clearly jump on it as some kind of victory for them. On the other I think badly done LTNs can do more harm than good.

Your posts have been fair and informative as have others. At the end of the day I think we will need radical change in society and it will need to come as part of a wider shift in consciousness.

 

[Bus Stopped]

How many cars does the A23 take?

I used to travel along Valley Road by car all the time and 10k cars sounds like a lot. I know the flow isn’t quite so spread, but I guess 10k per day is about 400 per hour. 200 each way. An average of 3 per minute in each direction. Which actually is quite similar to what I experienced when I used to drive that route.

Is adding 3, 6 or 9 cars per minute to the southbound carriageway of the A23 enough to cause the bedlam we have seen? And is removing them enough to free things up?

I think the LTNs were introduced without any consideration for additional public transport, road markings, traffic lights phasing etc, thanks to the abject incompetence of our council. But couldn’t some of these be tried before opening the LTN again?

It’s quite clear that the LTN is causing the issues on the A23 as what else could it be? I think I read somewhere on here that the south circular takes 25k a day so 10k is a hell of a lot and the vast majority in rush hours.

However maybe Valley Road could be opened up just during rush hours? Or a big shift to the A23 bottlenecks? But if something isn’t done it will alienate a lot of people.

 

[Cat Fan]

It’s not wide enough for two cars to pass each other in opposite directions. You have to duck in between parked cars and wait for a gap. It only widens out between the mini roundabout and the common. And that stretch is still open.

I think it's not going to replace the A23 but given how many problems there are on the stretch of the A23 that runs parallel, it's useful to have it as a backup option to relieve pressure during rush hour

I was one of many local people who voiced my concerns during the consultation but sadly we were not listened to. I just hope this doesn't create a wider backlash against LTNs because I like the neighbouring Streatham Hill and Tulse Hill schemes

 

[Cat Fan]

where is all the LTN fine money going to?

Excellent question!

Parking permit fees are still going up this year by a huge percentage

Leigham court road is still covered in potholes

 

[Smick]

I think it's not going to replace the A23 but given how many problems there are on the stretch of the A23 that runs parallel, it's useful to have it as a backup option to relieve pressure during rush hour

I was one of many local people who voiced my concerns during the consultation but sadly we were not listened to. I just hope this doesn't create a wider backlash against LTNs because I like the neighbouring Streatham Hill and Tulse Hill schemes

I’ve seen all these LTNs introduced. I think the consultations and trial periods are just box ticking exercises.

The people making the decisions don’t have the same ideas of what makes a successful scheme as the general public do.

 

[teuchter]

where is all the LTN fine money going to?

Well, I think it goes to Lambeth, and it's TfL who would be responsible for changing the road design and they are currently in a bit of a funding crisis.

I'm interested too, in what happens to the fine money (and how much it really is). There are lots of newspaper reports which say things like "£50M" but then when you read the article this is what it would be if all fines were paid at the full rate. I assume most aren't, and many are challenged, and there's a cost to processing it all. And a cost to maintaining the schemes themselves including replacing vandalised cameras and so on.

 

[Cat Fan]

I assume they just reduce the funding for the transport dept taken from council tax and that way they spend more council tax on delivering the core services.

Ring fenced doesn't mean much, they can still cross subsidise

I'm happy if Lambeth doesn't go the same way as Croydon

 

[edcraw]

Not saying that traffic isn’t worse but this collection of posts certainly shows that this isn’t unusual for here.

 

[Smick]

Not saying that traffic isn’t worse but this collection of posts certainly shows that this isn’t unusual for here.

I’m not sure if these photos show what is being complained of at present on Twitter and Streatham Mums Network.

Bus Stopped has said that the bus wasn’t moving for a long period. In those photos, we have no idea how long buses were stopped for. They might even be moving.

Static photos don’t tell a tale of moving vehicles. There seems to be people who are on both sides of the divide who stalk the A23, waiting for one photo to prove their point, then take their photo of either a completely clear road at 5.30pm or a bottleneck at 10.30pm.

It needs data from two different periods for comparison. From TfL, the bus companies, the council or some other authority, and allow that data to be challenged by someone who knows what they’re talking about.

 

[Smick]

Well, I think it goes to Lambeth, and it's TfL who would be responsible for changing the road design and they are currently in a bit of a funding crisis.

I'm interested too, in what happens to the fine money (and how much it really is). There are lots of newspaper reports which say things like "£50M" but then when you read the article this is what it would be if all fines were paid at the full rate. I assume most aren't, and many are challenged, and there's a cost to processing it all. And a cost to maintaining the schemes themselves including replacing vandalised cameras and so on.

That’s the biggest problem I have with these schemes, the council haven’t mitigated any of the impacts. Just imposed them in isolation.

In particular there hasn’t been any improvement in public transport. The P13 remains the only way to get through the Streatham Hill LTN. No different route has been introduced, no more frequency for the P13, no bigger bus. I’ve written to councillors who tell me TfL run the buses, not them, so there’s nothing they can do.

Likewise, for traffic light phasing, box junctions, I’m also hearing, although not from having written to them “That’s not the council, that’s TfL”.

If the council don’t have input into the levers which can make the LTN a success, should they do it in the first place?

All they have done is increase the number of Lime bikes which, to me, looks like corporate littering.

 

[PlasT]

Obviously anyone saying there were never traffic jams pre LTN is talking nonsense and not doing their argument any favours.

I walk on the A23 nearly every weekday evening and to me it seems the traffic jams have got much more frequent and worse. All anecdotal and maybe recency bias is at play but pretty sure chimes with most other daily road users.

The “debate” largely just goes round in circles. And I’m sure if we do get any data it will be roundly criticised as flawed by both sides.

 

[Cat Fan]

Bus takes two hours to travel three miles through congestion fuelled by new LTN

One half-an-hour bus journey took four times as long near the LTN

www.standard.co.uk

It's really poor by the council, they are blaming everything under the sun, even rail strikes(?) instead of admitting that the LTN is responsible.

Also the Lambeth statement that traffic fell on boundary roads in other LTNs should be examined carefully. It wasn't the case for Streatham Hill LTN and it definitely won't be the case for this one once the data comes in.

 

[edcraw]

I’m not sure if these photos show what is being complained of at present on Twitter and Streatham Mums Network.

Bus Stopped has said that the bus wasn’t moving for a long period. In those photos, we have no idea how long buses were stopped for. They might even be moving.

Static photos don’t tell a tale of moving vehicles. There seems to be people who are on both sides of the divide who stalk the A23, waiting for one photo to prove their point, then take their photo of either a completely clear road at 5.30pm or a bottleneck at 10.30pm.

It needs data from two different periods for comparison. From TfL, the bus companies, the council or some other authority, and allow that data to be challenged by someone who knows what they’re talking about.

Agreed about the need for data and as I say not doubting it’s got worse but buses have always been stuck in traffic at the junction outside the Odeon.

There’s certainly stuff that could and should be done to prioritise buses there - ans should’ve been done before the LTN. The changes shown here on Brixton Hill - making the left lane left turn only except buses & extending the bus lane the other side of the lights - have helped buses a ton.

 

[Smick]

Agreed about the need for data and as I say not doubting it’s got worse but buses have always been stuck in traffic at the junction outside the Odeon.

There’s certainly stuff that could and should be done to prioritise buses there - ans should’ve been done before the LTN. The changes shown here on Brixton Hill - making the left lane left turn only except buses & extending the bus lane the other side of the lights - have helped buses a ton.

View attachment 413777

I’m not sure if you’ve ever driven towards the Swan in Stockwell from Brixton direction.

There’s a traffic light which applies to buses only. Let’s the buses out ahead of cars.

Why not stick one of those in outside of the Odeon? Buses get to travel straight ahead at the cinema, then cars do. And, because Pendennis is now LTN, you can reduce the amount of time they get on green and probably not impact the green time of other road users.

That’s the sort of conversation which was needed prior to the implementation of the LTN. Rather than Lambeth saying “that road is TfL’s problem” and TfL saying “Lambeth make these changes on their own”.

Complete bunch of incompetents all round.

 

[edcraw]

I’m not sure if you’ve ever driven towards the Swan in Stockwell from Brixton direction.

There’s a traffic light which applies to buses only. Let’s the buses out ahead of cars.

Why not stick one of those in outside of the Odeon? Buses get to travel straight ahead at the cinema, then cars do. And, because Pendennis is now LTN, you can reduce the amount of time they get on green and probably not impact the green time of other road users.

That’s the sort of conversation which was needed prior to the implementation of the LTN. Rather than Lambeth saying “that road is TfL’s problem” and TfL saying “Lambeth make these changes on their own”.

Complete bunch of incompetents all round.

Yeah, that type of light works well, also on the Walworth road. Agreed that these things should’ve be thought about beforehand but this is also a trial to see the effects.

It is interesting that the anti lot are suddenly very interested in bus times just like they suddenly got interested in pollution etc.