Brixton Liveable Neighbourhood and LTN schemes - improvements for pedestrians and cyclists

[Prophet_UK]

What are the cycle routes that you do regularly? And what is the journey that you have had problems with when using the "TFL system"? (does "TfL system" mean public transport?)

On the cycle and scooter to and from Tesco's (using Ferndale road (Bon marche route). But I work in the City so used to use Atlantic Road, Villa Road to get onto Brixton Road mainly.
My Wife is disabled and I need to often use the car to get her around so all of the road closures have added 30 mins to even small journeys to the Pavillion practice. If you are a Brixtionan you will be familiar with the Gresham Road bottleneck and this has a box junction (again often blocked) or the exit from the O2 Academy. Apologies but there are so many.

For the TFL trips, I use Brixton tube to Kings cross which is often closed due to people congestion then walk from there to Angel or I get the bus to Oval to get on the Northern line to city Angel. If I ride to work I tend to ride through the estates then Kennington Park to Kennington road, through the Elephant then up through Borough, spitifields to Barbican then back streets to Angel as there isn't direct bus routes. So it's often scooter to and from work.

 

[teuchter]

On the cycle and scooter to and from Tesco's (using Ferndale road (Bon marche route). But I work in the City so used to use Atlantic Road, Villa Road to get onto Brixton Road mainly.
My Wife is disabled and I need to often use the car to get her around so all of the road closures have added 30 mins to even small journeys to the Pavillion practice. If you are a Brixtionan you will be familiar with the Gresham Road bottleneck and this has a box junction (again often blocked) or the exit from the O2 Academy. Apologies but there are so many.

For the TFL trips, I use Brixton tube to Kings cross which is often closed due to people congestion then walk from there to Angel or I get the bus to Oval to get on the Northern line to city Angel. If I ride to work I tend to ride through the estates then Kennington Park to Kennington road, through the Elephant then up through Borough, spitifields to Barbican then back streets to Angel as there isn't direct bus routes. So it's often scooter to and from work.

If I've understood correctly, as far as cycling is concerned, your problem is mainly with Ferndale Rd and Brixton Rd.

Ferndale is supposed to be one of Lambeth's "Healthy Routes" so if it's now got more motor traffic than it used to, then the scheme is not working. However, it was pointed out a few posts back that the Ferndale scheme had not yet been fully implemented - I don't know if that's still the case. Also, it's normal for there to be additional disruption for a period after things change because it takes a while for people to change their regular journeys and for route planners to update. So would you be willing to give it a few more weeks to settle down, before concluding that conditions on Ferndale Rd have worsened?

As for Brixton Rd I'd agree it's not pleasant to cycle on in the bit just north of Brixton centre. But is your proposed solution here to re-widen the road, to re-instate more lanes? Is your hope that doing this would ease the congestion and traffic levels (which presumably would also help your car journeys which are delayed by having to get through on this road too)? Because generally that doesn't work - if you increase the road capacity it just fills up with more traffic.

If there were some way of getting a proper segregated cycle lane on the N-S axis through Brixton centre then I'd agree that would be very helpful. At the moment, the closest quiet(ish) N-S route is the one that runs down Loughborough Rd and it sounds like you use something like that to get to/from the City, but of course if you are starting from the Ferndale area then you need to get across to that, and it sounds like that's when you use Villa Rd or Atlantic Rd, either of which force you along Brixton Rd. As I understand it, the "Healthy Route" proposed as part of what they call the Loughborough Neighbourhood, which makes its way up Station Rd, and then Barrington Rd is designed to address this and work in conjunction with the Ferndale Rd route. There is still a short section along Brixton Rd that links those two pieces, and I'm not sure if there are plans to make that ink section work better than it does at the moment.




To make a more general point: your example of cycling from Brixton to the city, I think illustrates that there is a quiet cycling route many parts of which are already OK, but that there are problem sections. Even if only 5 or 10% of the route consists of problem sections, that's enough to put people off (understandably). The problem sections are known about, and attempts are being made to address them. But it's a slow and difficult process connecting all these bits up, because you have to make lots of local-level changes to enable it, and every single one of these is going to raise local level objections from people who may not see or value the larger-scale benefits of making these kinds of changes in general.

The same applies to the principle of reducing cut-through routes and reducing road capacity - it seems to work well at a large scale level, reducing the overall level of traffic, but you have to manage to persuade people neighbourhood by neighbourhood that it's worth it, again because the benefits aren't always very visible if you look at it only on a very local level.

 

[Gramsci]

On the cycle and scooter to and from Tesco's (using Ferndale road (Bon marche route). But I work in the City so used to use Atlantic Road, Villa Road to get onto Brixton Road mainly.
My Wife is disabled and I need to often use the car to get her around so all of the road closures have added 30 mins to even small journeys to the Pavillion practice. If you are a Brixtionan you will be familiar with the Gresham Road bottleneck and this has a box junction (again often blocked) or the exit from the O2 Academy. Apologies but there are so many.

For the TFL trips, I use Brixton tube to Kings cross which is often closed due to people congestion then walk from there to Angel or I get the bus to Oval to get on the Northern line to city Angel. If I ride to work I tend to ride through the estates then Kennington Park to Kennington road, through the Elephant then up through Borough, spitifields to Barbican then back streets to Angel as there isn't direct bus routes. So it's often scooter to and from work.

Sorry this LTN has affected your ability to get your disabled wife around.

Have you put comments on the Council commonplace consultation webpage?

This kind of thing needs to be recorded before Council decides to make this permanent.

Or email your Cllrs as well.

These LTNs are for individual neighborhoods so those neighborhood should have a say.

 

[teuchter]

I can't find a journey from any location to the Pavillion practice where I can see how 30 minutes could be added on by the changes, at least according to Google maps.

 

[Prophet_UK]

I can't find a journey from any location to the Pavillion practice where I can see how 30 minutes could be added on by the changes, at least according to Google maps.

Try from Somerleyton Road, I need to merge with Coldharbour lane (all traffic now come through here) so the bottle necks are as follows. Getting from Coldharbour to Brixton town hall The road pinches at the top section by the ritzy so if a Bus comes down (either P5/322) Traffic is a single lane by Satay bar. Then once on the 1 way traffic merging from Norwood and streatham congests Brixton road/ Acrelane intersection. Then wait to turn left into Brighton Terrace. Alternate route is to go around the moorlands estate down Moorlands road across to Gresham Road, over to Stockwell road, left onto Chantary Road, Daryall, Road, Pullross, nursery, bernays and finally Brighton terrace. Dude I know my area either way I touch all of the grid points which would normally take 5-10 now increased to 30 most of which is stationary in traffic. I walk it but for the wife she can't so has to be driven. Google doesn't always show jams most people use the Waze app which provide drivers live inputs.

 

[thebackrow]

Try from Somerleyton Road, I need to merge with Coldharbour lane (all traffic now come through here) so the bottle necks are as follows. Getting from Coldharbour to Brixton town hall The road pinches at the top section by . Dude I know my area either way I touch all of the grid points which would normally take 5-10 now increased to 30 most of which is stationary in traffic.

There's a couple of other things going on at the moment though - there is gas works on Brixton Hill with lanes closures/signals thats causing delays in both directions, stretching back to the Brixton gyratory. There's also fibre laying works on Acre Lane that's signalised (currently with side roads signalised as well) that's causing big delays in both directions on Acre Lane.

Your 30 minutes does seem a bit of an outlier - Google has a lot of data to work on and I've always found it's trips times spookily accurate (unless something happens en route when it changes). People were claiming hour long trips to Tesco from the northern half of Shakespeare Road (basically the same as your trip to the Doctor) but even at peak afternoon rush hour Google was still putting that as no more than 12 minutes.

 

[teuchter]

Try from Somerleyton Road, I need to merge with Coldharbour lane (all traffic now come through here) so the bottle necks are as follows. Getting from Coldharbour to Brixton town hall The road pinches at the top section by the ritzy so if a Bus comes down (either P5/322) Traffic is a single lane by Satay bar. Then once on the 1 way traffic merging from Norwood and streatham congests Brixton road/ Acrelane intersection. Then wait to turn left into Brighton Terrace. Alternate route is to go around the moorlands estate down Moorlands road across to Gresham Road, over to Stockwell road, left onto Chantary Road, Daryall, Road, Pullross, nursery, bernays and finally Brighton terrace. Dude I know my area either way I touch all of the grid points which would normally take 5-10 now increased to 30 most of which is stationary in traffic. I walk it but for the wife she can't so has to be driven. Google doesn't always show jams most people use the Waze app which provide drivers live inputs.

Previously you said it added 30 minutes, not that it took 30 minutes in total.

But if your starting point is Somerleyton Rd, now I don't understand why your cycling route to Tesco goes along Ferndale Rd. Also, to cycle to the City, why do you need to go onto Brixton Rd at all?

 

[Prophet_UK]

Previously you said it added 30 minutes, not that it took 30 minutes in total.

But if your starting point is Somerleyton Rd, now I don't understand why your cycling route to Tesco goes along Ferndale Rd. Also, to cycle to the City, why do you need to go onto Brixton Rd at all?

If there were no road shutdowns 5 mins max - Shorter route would be Somerleyton Rd, Coldharbour, right onto Atlantic Road, Brixton road, Pulross, nursery, Bernays and finally Brighton terrace. 5 mins, if there wasn't a restriction on left of Atlantic there would be less traffic on Coldharbour for sure. Without the restrictions the only time that part of Brixton is grid locked is peak for about 1 hour again this is feeding traffic from Herne Hill/Brockwell park side.

 

[Prophet_UK]

There's a couple of other things going on at the moment though - there is gas works on Brixton Hill with lanes closures/signals thats causing delays in both directions, stretching back to the Brixton gyratory. There's also fibre laying works on Acre Lane that's signalised (currently with side roads signalised as well) that's causing big delays in both directions on Acre Lane.

Your 30 minutes does seem a bit of an outlier - Google has a lot of data to work on and I've always found it's trips times spookily accurate (unless something happens en route when it changes). People were claiming hour long trips to Tesco from the northern half of Shakespeare Road (basically the same as your trip to the Doctor) but even at peak afternoon rush hour Google was still putting that as no more than 12 minutes.

And that right there is why I switched to Waze. Gmaps told me once a place was 3 mins by foot 45 mins later on the hottest day of the year I nearly passed out at my interview.

 

[thebackrow]

And that right there is why I switched to Waze. Gmaps told me once a place was 3 mins by foot 45 mins later on the hottest day of the year I nearly passed out at my interview.

That's really odd. What were the origin and destination for that walking trip? What time of day did you find it took 30 minutes to drive from Somerleyton to Brighton Terrace? Was it a one off - it doesn't seem to reflect the trip times anyone else is getting.

Personally I've used both Waze and Google maps and never found anything between them on trip times - even in London and when traffic is really heavy. Plus I really dislike the way Waze encourages speeding by flagging up speed cameras and police presence. That should, like in France, be illegal.

I don't have any knowledge of your partner's condition but is there really no other way she could reach the Pavilion Practice from Somerlyton Road without using a car? It's a less than 10 minute walk - it's seems ridiculous that there aren't any alternatives to a motorway-capable 5 seater car seems such overkill for a trip that short.

 

[teuchter]

If there were no road shutdowns 5 mins max - Shorter route would be Somerleyton Rd, Coldharbour, right onto Atlantic Road, Brixton road, Pulross, nursery, Bernays and finally Brighton terrace. 5 mins, if there wasn't a restriction on left of Atlantic there would be less traffic on Coldharbour for sure. Without the restrictions the only time that part of Brixton is grid locked is peak for about 1 hour again this is feeding traffic from Herne Hill/Brockwell park side.

Without which restrictions?

 

[Prophet_UK]

That's really odd. What were the origin and destination for that walking trip? What time of day did you find it took 30 minutes to drive from Somerleyton to Brighton Terrace? Was it a one off - it doesn't seem to reflect the trip times anyone else is getting.

Personally I've used both Waze and Google maps and never found anything between them on trip times - even in London and when traffic is really heavy. Plus I really dislike the way Waze encourages speeding by flagging up speed cameras and police presence. That should, like in France, be illegal.

I don't have any knowledge of your partner's condition but is there really no other way she could reach the Pavilion Practice from Somerlyton Road without using a car? It's a less than 10 minute walk - it's seems ridiculous that there aren't any alternatives to a motorway-capable 5 seater car seems such overkill for a trip that short.

It's funny that I need to give all of these details, so the time was Mid week 2pm appointment and she is qualified as disabled, however there should be a fair policy for all road users. Like I said I am someone who adapts if it's short distance I tend to walk, don't really have issues with traffic (I am also asthmatic) so affected on really hot days it does cause a bit of a problem. But I have seen things get worse since the introduction of COVID-19 road closures. More stationary traffic limited space for cyclists/scooters. We need to also add into the factor of these statistics types of vehicles, how many hybrid's electric cars are used? how many low emissions stop/start vehicles are also in the mix. I must protest about the villainy against the motor user not all of us speed around drive gas guzzling, poorly maintained cars for short trips. If they analyse traffic the average car is no more than 5 years old.

 

[Gramsci]

It's funny that I need to give all of these details,

You will be interrogated until you're worn down to the point you thank the Council for bringing in the LTNs.

Thanks for posting your experience of it btw.

 

[teuchter]

It's funny that I need to give all of these details, so the time was Mid week 2pm appointment and she is qualified as disabled, however there should be a fair policy for all road users. Like I said I am someone who adapts if it's short distance I tend to walk, don't really have issues with traffic (I am also asthmatic) so affected on really hot days it does cause a bit of a problem. But I have seen things get worse since the introduction of COVID-19 road closures. More stationary traffic limited space for cyclists/scooters. We need to also add into the factor of these statistics types of vehicles, how many hybrid's electric cars are used? how many low emissions stop/start vehicles are also in the mix. I must protest about the villainy against the motor user not all of us speed around drive gas guzzling, poorly maintained cars for short trips. If they analyse traffic the average car is no more than 5 years old.

I don't really understand your position though, or what point you want to make. What is it that you think should change? The Livable Neighbourhood things shouldn't have been brought in? More roadspace for motor traffic to ease congestion? Less roadspace for motor traffic to make it easier for cyclists? What's the point about electric/hybrid cars - they help with air quality a little bit but it doesn't have any impact on congestion or journey times, so what do you mean about factoring them into statistics?

 

[Loose meat]

After 5 or 6 weeks of this LTN malarkey I find it difficult to not see them as divisive and destructive. The basic premise seems to be for one area to win and the areas around it to lose. It's sledgehammer stuff. I've looked and can't see any reliable research into the benefits of this approach, it seems to set one area against another, one section of society against another, while pushing traffic around in ever more grotesque ways. In other words a pretty standard Johnson/Cummings wheeze.

I get that the town hall leadership fetishises cafe culture and won't rest until Atlantic Rod is a sea of bistro tables, also that people lke Claire Holland want to add this to their Parliamentary candidate CV, but it all feels so desperate and amateur. I've looped back into despair again at Labour's antics. Greens won't touch it, if you haven't noticed.

 

[happyshopper]

Greens won't touch it, if you haven't noticed.

That might be because of political opportunism rather than any point of principle. Can’t tell until they tell us what they would do.

 

[newbie]

After 5 or 6 weeks of this LTN malarkey I find it difficult to not see them as divisive and destructive. The basic premise seems to be for one area to win and the areas around it to lose. It's sledgehammer stuff. I've looked and can't see any reliable research into the benefits of this approach, it seems to set one area against another, one section of society against another, while pushing traffic around in ever more grotesque ways. In other words a pretty standard Johnson/Cummings wheeze.

Yes, it's aimed at quality of life improvements for chosen Victorian street insiders, with likely capital gains for owner occupiers and landlords as the desirability of their newly tranquil properties increases compared with other, less favoured, streets which will have to soak up additional pollution, noise, danger and so on.

Someone will be along in a bit to read you the script about health and wellbeing benefits for all, happy cyclists and children frolicking as they walk to school, to be achieved by frustrating drivers out of their cars. SFAICS the wider effects on social cohesion/division through alienating and marginalising outsiders was an afterthought at best.

I get that the town hall leadership fetishises cafe culture and won't rest until Atlantic Rod is a sea of bistro tables, also that people lke Claire Holland want to add this to their Parliamentary candidate CV, but it all feels so desperate and amateur. I've looped back into despair again at Labour's antics. Greens won't touch it, if you haven't noticed.

I hadn't (my version of a tranquil life involves not letting Lambeth party politics intrude). Is that a stated Green position, is it meaningful?

 

[teuchter]

The basic premise seems to be for one area to win and the areas around it to lose.

Is 'premise' the word you meant to use here?

 

[ash]

Did anyone attend the virtual meeting about Ferndale last night. I forgot it was on and just wondered if anything interesting was said?

 

[thebackrow]

It's funny that I need to give all of these details,

Just trying to understand what you'd experienced. Some of us who think these schemes are the right approach want to understand any issues they're causing and try to get them improved. You talked about a journey time which doesn't match anything I've seen or experienced (and a problem with Google giving a completely inaccurate walking time which I've never seen) so obviously interested to find out more.

however there should be a fair policy for all road users.

Personally I'd like an approach to transport that enables everyone to make the trips they need to by the cleanest and lowest impact form of transport they can. For many people the car is the default thing they use, even for trips that they could easily walk. I see that as a problem. If you can get those people not to drive there will be more space on the roads for those that really need to.

 

[Gramsci]

I hadn't (my version of a tranquil life involves not letting Lambeth party politics intrude). Is that a stated Green position, is it meaningful?

During the LJ road closure the Greens stayed silent. When they put up candidates for Coldharbour ward they are presented as alternative for pissed off Labour voters more than Green issues.

 

[thebackrow]

Lambeth Cyclists linked to this image the other day which I think is trying to show where the majority of social housing/estates is around Railton area. it doesn't look like the scheme only benefits 'Victorian Street insiders". It actually looks like the estates are mostly within the areas where through traffic is being cut. Most of the estates don't front onto main roads - and the main one that does (Southwyck House) was of course built to turn its back on a 6 lane elevated ringway.

 

[thebackrow]

Theres one for Oval as well - most of the "insiders" there seem to be estates?!

 

[Gramsci]

Lambeth Cyclists linked to this image the other day which I think is trying to show where the majority of social housing/estates is around Railton area. it doesn't look like the scheme only benefits 'Victorian Street insiders". It actually looks like the estates are mostly within the areas where through traffic is being cut. Most of the estates don't front onto main roads - and the main one that does (Southwyck House) was of course built to turn its back on a 6 lane elevated ringway.

The barrier block fronts onto CHL which is not part of the Railton scheme. Neither is Moorlands estate part of Railton scheme. Nor is Guiness trust estate. They are all other side of the railway line to Railton. Nor does Shakespeare road go through them.

So don't see why they are included. Take them out and the picture looks different

 

[Prophet_UK]

Just trying to understand what you'd experienced. Some of us who think these schemes are the right approach want to understand any issues they're causing and try to get them improved. You talked about a journey time which doesn't match anything I've seen or experienced (and a problem with Google giving a completely inaccurate walking time which I've never seen) so obviously interested to find out more.

With this example I was in Finsbury Circus Gardens and needed to get to City Road (specific post code used was EC1V 2NZ) it stated 3 mins walk (I was in Finsbury Circus Gardens) which turned into 15 mins when I came out of the Old street underpass. Which I did in a full blown suit for a interview on the hottest day of the year. Since then use Waze.


Personally I'd like an approach to transport that enables everyone to make the trips they need to by the cleanest and lowest impact form of transport they can. For many people the car is the default thing they use, even for trips that they could easily walk. I see that as a problem. If you can get those people not to drive there will be more space on the roads for those that really need to.

It's the way changes are implemented under disguised incentives like COVID-19 or social distancing and pollution to create ill thought out road planning which blames motorists. There is no doubt there is an increase in pollution but the reasons behind the increase needs to be clear and precise BEFORE measures like road closures, decreasing road space or pavement widening which restricts the free movement of traffic. This planning creates bottlenecks, moves the pollution to other areas (NOT DECREASES), increase avoidable accidents between cyclist, pedestrians & motorists. Why does pavement widening work (apparently done due to social distancing) over an added cycle path going through the market as an example where no motor vehicles are permitted, or making alternate junctions cycle only (NOT ALL ROADS) i.e. Salton Road car friendly Kellett cycle only. The bus stop along Coldharbour lane causes stationary traffic flow, as does the squeezing into 1 lane along Brixton Road. Make Lambeth make better use of the box junction enforcement, there are also delivery vehicles unloading which again has an impact. Minor changes in these area's could help lower pollution and allow traffic to flow freely. If traffic flows more freely this will improve transport performance prompting more people to use it (hey we may be able to make it cheaper) better planning with utility companies on planned works. These are my points. On the types of cars point I made earlier these cars are also stuck in the traffic but are 0 pollutant but add to congestion. Lambeth should look at parking enforcement as Brixton has a very active social presence which increases in traffic but with limited parking or enforcement causes high revving and idling vehicles throughout the day and evening so no reprieve from what pollution already exists

 

[sleaterkinney]

It’s not the case that there is x number of cars and we have to plan around it. LTNs are about making alternatives feasible. And yeah, traffic does decrease.

 

[newbie]

Lambeth Cyclists linked to this image the other day which I think is trying to show where the majority of social housing/estates is around Railton area. it doesn't look like the scheme only benefits 'Victorian Street insiders". It actually looks like the estates are mostly within the areas where through traffic is being cut. Most of the estates don't front onto main roads - and the main one that does (Southwyck House) was of course built to turn its back on a 6 lane elevated ringway.

Carefully drawing the boundary then highlighting a large block of social housing outside it? Not showing that here's social tenancies in the Victorian housing as well. No mention that people from Shakespeare Road north were the ones complaining about social exclusion. All a bit desperate really.

Misses the point anyway- the primary beneficiaries will be the current property owners- occupiers and landlords- who can hope for a windfall. Other benefits will, of course be shared more widely, but capital gains (& likely rent increases) will only benefit the already better off.

 

[Loose meat]

Moorlands estate is locked out of the Railton scheme - no entry signs, camera, the posh flower bed bollards. In that drawing above it's presented as being part of it. The WhatsApp groups on Moorlands are apoplecticly opposed. It's now called 'Shakespeare Road North'.

If you understand the dimensins of the Railton scheme that map shows about 85% of it is privately-owned housing. The social housing is presumably bomb damaged sites.

 

[thebackrow]

Carefully drawing the boundary then highlighting a large block of social housing outside it? Not showing that here's social tenancies in the Victorian housing as well. No mention that people from Shakespeare Road north were the ones complaining about social exclusion. All a bit desperate really.

Does that make any difference? There will be social tenancies in victorian housing throughout the whole area based on my experience of Brixton streets. That just shows that none of these streets are really 'rich ghettos' - nearly all of them are very mixed. Shakespeare Road north is no longer a through road - how are they socially excluded from areas within a short walk? The only change is that if you live on Shakespeare Road North you can't drive to Herne Hill by the shortest route (and conversely no-one south of the Railway can drive to Loughborough Junction, and beyond, by the shortest route).

 

[Loose meat]

Does that make any difference? There will be social tenancies in victorian housing throughout the whole area based on my experience of Brixton streets. That just shows that none of these streets are really 'rich ghettos' - nearly all of them are very mixed. Shakespeare Road north is no longer a through road - how are they socially excluded from areas within a short walk? The only change is that if you live on Shakespeare Road North you can't drive to Herne Hill by the shortest route (and conversely no-one south of the Railway can drive to Loughborough Junction, and beyond, by the shortest route).

pssst. Social tenants don't OWN the property. This, like all Tory central Gov schemes, is about following the money. So yes, that matters, very, very much. Property values inside Claire Hollands magical kingdom will see a very nice upswing.

Lambeth Cyclists have chosen to misrepresent the relevnt landscape. It is disgusting behaviour.