Brixton Liveable Neighbourhood and LTN schemes - improvements for pedestrians and cyclists

[Gramsci]

[

I get what you're both saying but we're a representative democracy - we elect our politicians for a term based on their manifesto and polices. They consulted on their transport strategy and plans, they've had a transport strategy that supposedly put walking and cycling over driving for many years.

We're not a participatory democracy, where there are regular votes on specific decisions our government or council make. Consultation means inviting input and trying to understand issues people might have. It doesn't mean, and has never meant, a vote on a specific decision or whether a project should go ahead let alone residents on a particular street being able to veto changes.

Lambeth's 'co-operative council' aims https://www.lambeth.gov.uk/sites/default/files/Introduction to the Cooperative Council Constitution.pdf don't turn it into a participative democracy. it looks like an attempt to involve people in decision making and increase their voice but it doesn't and shouldn't mean a mini-referendum on anything that people shout about loudly enough.

There is a consultation - they're inviting feedback now through the commonplace sites. There has to be a more formal/traditional consultation before they're made permanent. But neither of those amount to a 'vote' on keep/cancel and nor should they - that's up to the council to determine whether this project has met whatever objectives they set or it, or if it's part of a larger strategy or plan.

We don't have vote on every planning application - people are consulted and invited to object but if a planning application is consistent with local planning/zoning etc it will go ahead. I can object and say 'I don't like the way it looks', or 'I don't want a school/supermarket/office bloc on my street' but those aren't "valid" for the planning department making a decision about an application.

No you dont get what Im saying.

What I said was genuine consultation.

Your trying to set up binary opposition between what you regard as two different types of democracy.

In practise its not a simple binary.

For example lobbying Cllrs and Council is part of representative democracy. Take the case of the LJ road closures. Residents organised lobbied Cllrs/ held public meeting. This led to Council reversing the decision on road closures. The decision was still taken by the elected representatives. This is perfectly legitimate way for residents to engage in representative democracy. Even if one does not support the campaign. People can and do participate directly in local democracy. Which I think is a good thing,

Democracy is not just about electing representatives every few years. Its also something that changes over time and struggle.

Due to the pandemic some of the normal functioning of local government has been suspended.

The consultation process on the llveable neighbourhoods was cut short. The Council are using Pandemic to bring them in without the normal consultation process.

So actually the normal functioning of representative democracy is suspended whilst pandemic is still going on.

BTW I know a bit about planning. The way it looks is a material consideration. Ive seen an application knocked back for that reason.

 

[Gramsci]

Agreed.

I moved to Brixton 20 years ago when I'm guessing around one vehicle every 10-15 minutes drove down my street. Now there's a steady stream of them - 2-2,500 a day - with associated road noise, danger and pollution - not to mention the regular shouting matches between drivers who won't give way to each other.

I don't remember being consulted on whether I wanted any of that.

I don't own a car but I'm not stupid - I realise that I depend on motorised transport. The stuff I buy from Brixton Wholefoods doesn't arrive by teleporter and nor do the pints at the Effra. And more.

But there are 80-90 households on my road. That's 25 vehicle movements per household per day; 200 vehicle movements per household per week. There's no doubt in my mind that is an unfair imposition of motorised traffic on a 100% residential road with many elderly vulnerable residents and a nursery and the LTN is a start in fixing that.

What will more consultation tell us? It's an honest question. I don't see how you could start this necessary process in a different way. Even better, expand it.

I saw what happened in LJ with the road closures few years back. Whole project was badly consulted and implemented by the Council.

When the recent Liveable Neighbourhood was first announced the lead officer came to LJ. He said the Council would learn from the mistakes made at LJ. More time and effort would be put into consulting communities. The project would not go ahead without community support.

IMO the Council has used pandemic to push through this scheme with minimum effort on its part.

My experience in LJ is that people did want changes to the traffic. Meeting few days ago residents group I know was wanting traffic calming etc. It wasn't that people in my LJ Neighbourhood were just against all road closures. They wanted for example HGV lorries banned from their roads, speeding dealt with etc.

The trouble with this thread is that some posters here are trying to portray those who are critically supportive of being against all changes to roads.

In reality a lot of people do see problems with traffic / roads in their areas. If asked they come up with ideas. But its called here by some posters "watered" down changes.

If the Council had actually listened in LJ road changes could have happened with community support.

So what Im saying is that it can be done.

Even if these are small changes for some the fact that people feel listened to and action is taken starts to build up support for more possible changes in future.

For example HGV lorries are , it appears , not supposed to go through certain bits of LJ. But Council take no action to enforce this.

Simple thing to get trust is to make work properly what is already agreed.

 

[newbie]

I moved to Brixton 20 years ago when I'm guessing around one vehicle every 10-15 minutes drove down my street. Now there's a steady stream of them - 2-2,500 a day - with associated road noise, danger and pollution - not to mention the regular shouting matches between drivers who won't give way to each other.

Interesting. Over that period(ish) overall traffic in Lambeth has dropped by somewhere between a quarter and a third, which might imply something has happened that's specific to your street, possibly closures elsewhere?

 

[marty21]

Pollution and reducing traffic are getting mixed up here.

There is experimental scheme in the City- only electric vehicles can use it.

Pollution can be reduced by making zero emssion vehicles mandatory in certain areas.

This is different issue to traffic reduction.

A zero emission zone is not about road closures/ road filtering.

I've only just realised the city has a zero emissions scheme. Got a letter from the City of London warning me that I had driven through it last weekend, only electric/hybrid vehicles allowed. Must admit I didn't notice the signs, they let me off with a warning, it's a £130 fine normally.

 

[sparkybird]

Although I just leant that emissions are only a part of the pollution from traffic - small particles from tyres, brakes and the road are also released when you drive. And these exist of course even if the car if electric, so the idea that all electric vehicles will result in no pollution is not correct.

 

[Aristocrat]

I saw what happened in LJ with the road closures few years back. Whole project was badly consulted and implemented by the Council.

When the recent Liveable Neighbourhood was first announced the lead officer came to LJ. He said the Council would learn from the mistakes made at LJ. More time and effort would be put into consulting communities. The project would not go ahead without community support.

IMO the Council has used pandemic to push through this scheme with minimum effort on its part.

My experience in LJ is that people did want changes to the traffic. Meeting few days ago residents group I know was wanting traffic calming etc. It wasn't that people in my LJ Neighbourhood were just against all road closures. They wanted for example HGV lorries banned from their roads, speeding dealt with etc.

The trouble with this thread is that some posters here are trying to portray those who are critically supportive of being against all changes to roads.

In reality a lot of people do see problems with traffic / roads in their areas. If asked they come up with ideas. But its called here by some posters "watered" down changes.

If the Council had actually listened in LJ road changes could have happened with community support.

So what Im saying is that it can be done.

Even if these are small changes for some the fact that people feel listened to and action is taken starts to build up support for more possible changes in future.

For example HGV lorries are , it appears , not supposed to go through certain bits of LJ. But Council take no action to enforce this.

Simple thing to get trust is to make work properly what is already agreed.

I agree with you, but I have yet to see a workable alternative from those opposed to the Railton LTN.

 

[Aristocrat]

Interesting. Over that period(ish) overall traffic in Lambeth has dropped by somewhere between a quarter and a third, which might imply something has happened that's specific to your street, possibly closures elsewhere?

I don't think it's about other closures - I can't think of any that weren't here when I moved here - Lambert, Josephine etc - and the evidence says that making harder to drive through a general area reduces traffic anyway. The TfL evidence shows that the whiter and wealthier you are, the more you drive. And Brixton has got whiter and wealthier - that may have something to do with it.

But actually I think it's mainly Satnav. The street has always been a great shortcut from east to west to avoid the St Matthews gyratory. Just that before the tech arrived, most drivers from outside the area didn't know about it. And alot of the traffic is from outside the area.

 

[thebackrow]

But actually I think it's mainly Satnav. The street has always been a great shortcut from east to west to avoid the St Matthews gyratory. Just that before the tech arrived, most drivers from outside the area didn't know about it. And alot of the traffic is from outside the area.

That's my feeling. Ever increasing use of Satnavs pushes traffic onto backstreets even when the main roads are quiet and the time saving is negligible. Plus ever larger cars worsen congestion by reducing road space and making passing on vicorian backstreets much more difficult.

 

[editor]

Coldharbour Lane has been noticeably busier these days with the hot weather helping those noxious fumes circulate around anyone dining al fresco along the street

 

[newbie]

But actually I think it's mainly Satnav. The street has always been a great shortcut from east to west to avoid the St Matthews gyratory. Just that before the tech arrived, most drivers from outside the area didn't know about it. And alot of the traffic is from outside the area.

From ~150 per day to 2,000 plus is a huge increase. It seems a lot to me. Sure satnavs have made a difference, and people may have learned routes initially suggested by satnavs or online mapping, but that doesn't explain why a useful route that avoids such a longstanding bottlekneck was hardly used at all when traffic levels were so much higher than now. People knew and understood London, congestion and ratrunning in the days of paper maps and much more traffic, after all, and just 5 cars an hour seems way below what any useful route would have carried. No matter, just curiosity.

 

[Gramsci]

I was cycling down Milkwood road couple of days ago and lot of traffic.

Checked the commonplace for Railton LTN and comments that traffic is being displaced onto Milkwood road due to Shakespeare road being blocked off. Comments that the waste lorries from the depot are now going down Milkwood road.

Also affecting Hinton and Coldharbour.

Comments that traffic is being displaced onto Dulwich road- delivery vehicles by the LTN.

 

[Gramsci]

Lot of angry posts on the Railton LTN about the blocking off of Shakespeare road.

This is looking like the most contentious bit of this experimental scheme.

Several comments that support scheme but people who live in the LTN should be allowed to use the bus gates. Ie be able to drive through Shakespeare road for example. Seems a reasonable compromise to me.

 

[Gramsci]

Satnavs are only useful up to a point. I've been using Google recently. Some routes aren't what I would do. Knowing London is best thing. Trouble with satnav is you don't learn the roads.

Old fashioned use a map and you learn the roads.

Given that Waze is outstanding for cars and motorbikes.

 

[sleaterkinney]

I saw what happened in LJ with the road closures few years back. Whole project was badly consulted and implemented by the Council.

When the recent Liveable Neighbourhood was first announced the lead officer came to LJ. He said the Council would learn from the mistakes made at LJ. More time and effort would be put into consulting communities. The project would not go ahead without community support.

IMO the Council has used pandemic to push through this scheme with minimum effort on its part.

My experience in LJ is that people did want changes to the traffic. Meeting few days ago residents group I know was wanting traffic calming etc. It wasn't that people in my LJ Neighbourhood were just against all road closures. They wanted for example HGV lorries banned from their roads, speeding dealt with etc.

The trouble with this thread is that some posters here are trying to portray those who are critically supportive of being against all changes to roads.

In reality a lot of people do see problems with traffic / roads in their areas. If asked they come up with ideas. But its called here by some posters "watered" down changes.

If the Council had actually listened in LJ road changes could have happened with community support.

So what Im saying is that it can be done.

Even if these are small changes for some the fact that people feel listened to and action is taken starts to build up support for more possible changes in future.

For example HGV lorries are , it appears , not supposed to go through certain bits of LJ. But Council take no action to enforce this.

Simple thing to get trust is to make work properly what is already agreed.

If this went to consultation the most we would end up with is a few speed bumps. You would have meetings where those who shout loudest would be heard and those most resistant to change, it is not the way to have decisions made.

I’m confused also as to why you expect it from Lambeth, was there community consultation over the fence at the country show?

 

[wurlycurly]

I saw what happened in LJ with the road closures few years back. Whole project was badly consulted and implemented by the Council.

When the recent Liveable Neighbourhood was first announced the lead officer came to LJ. He said the Council would learn from the mistakes made at LJ. More time and effort would be put into consulting communities. The project would not go ahead without community support.

IMO the Council has used pandemic to push through this scheme with minimum effort on its part.

My experience in LJ is that people did want changes to the traffic. Meeting few days ago residents group I know was wanting traffic calming etc. It wasn't that people in my LJ Neighbourhood were just against all road closures. They wanted for example HGV lorries banned from their roads, speeding dealt with etc.

The trouble with this thread is that some posters here are trying to portray those who are critically supportive of being against all changes to roads.

In reality a lot of people do see problems with traffic / roads in their areas. If asked they come up with ideas. But its called here by some posters "watered" down changes.

If the Council had actually listened in LJ road changes could have happened with community support.

So what Im saying is that it can be done.

Even if these are small changes for some the fact that people feel listened to and action is taken starts to build up support for more possible changes in future.

For example HGV lorries are , it appears , not supposed to go through certain bits of LJ. But Council take no action to enforce this.

Simple thing to get trust is to make work properly what is already agreed.

You keep going on about consultation but that's to ignore the fact that we're in extraordinary times. Covid cases are soaring again and there's a desperate need to alleviate the pressure, or reliance, on public transport. It will save lives and LTNs should help with that. Do you think we should maybe chat about them for a couple of years first?

 

[Gramsci]

You keep going on about consultation but that's to ignore the fact that we're in extraordinary times. Covid cases are soaring again and there's a desperate need to alleviate the pressure, or reliance, on public transport. It will save lives and LTNs should help with that. Do you think we should maybe chat about them for a couple of years first?

No I'm not ignoring we are living in "extraordinary times". Thankyou for reminding me. Fact that I have only just keeping my head above water financiallly due to this must have past me by.

If that is your concern then the furlong should be extended. People should be given more support to stay at home and not go to work.

Government should be doing more to bail out small business and those in hospitality and entertainment sector..

You do realise part of this Tory government new found interest in gettting everyone cycling and walking is that they want to get everyone back to work? Making profits for the man?

There is alternative - continue with supporting home working and for those who cant extend the furlong.

That is the way to alleviate pressure on the transport system.

 

[Gramsci]

If this went to consultation the most we would end up with is a few speed bumps. You would have meetings where those who shout loudest would be heard and those most resistant to change, it is not the way to have decisions made.

I’m confused also as to why you expect it from Lambeth, was there community consultation over the fence at the country show?

I engage with Lambeth. I argue the corner that people should have a say. It gets me into trouble. That is what I do. With the limited time I have.

Sorry I have a lot of sympathy for those who "shout the loudest"

Take XR. I covered some of their direct actions here on other sections of U75. I have my criticisms but on the level of shouting the loudest I have a lot of respect for their well planned peaceful direct actions. Got a lot of media attention. Lambeth Council, under new leader Jack Hopkins has engaged with them. XR are example of what you deride as "shouting the loudest". I call it well organise campaigning. I covered them blocking Waterloo bridge for example.

Another more moderate group is the London Cycling Campaign. Well funded through individuals. With local area sections. Very effective Lobby group who get a set at the table with Labour Councils.

Shouting as you call it is completely legitimate way democracy works in this country.

I could go on with more examples.

 

[wurlycurly]

No I'm not ignoring we are living in "extraordinary times". Thankyou for reminding me. Fact that I have only just keeping my head above water financiallly due to this must have past me by.

If that is your concern then the furlong should be extended. People should be given more support to stay at home and not go to work.

Government should be doing more to bail out small business and those in hospitality and entertainment sector..

You do realise part of this Tory government new found interest in gettting everyone cycling and walking is that they want to get everyone back to work? Making profits for the man?

There is alternative - continue with supporting home working and for those who cant extend the furlong.

That is the way to alleviate pressure on the transport system.

The "new-found interest in getting everyone cycling and walking" is not solely about "making profits for the Man". There's a mental health aspect as well. Lockdown is disastrous for many people. Getting out and about puts less strain on the NHS.

 

[Gramsci]

If this went to consultation the most we would end up with is a few speed bumps. You would have meetings where those who shout loudest would be heard and those most resistant to change, it is not the way to have decisions made.

I’m confused also as to why you expect it from Lambeth, was there community consultation over the fence at the country show?

Reading this again.

Throughout this thread there has been a contempt for local democracy as seen in posts like this.

 

[Gramsci]

The "new-found interest in getting everyone cycling and walking" is not solely about "making profits for the Man". There's a mental health aspect as well. Lockdown is disastrous for many people. Getting out and about puts less strain on the NHS.

Dont lecture me on this. Ive been really struggling in last few months.

This is just patronising.

 

[Gramsci]

The "new-found interest in getting everyone cycling and walking" is not solely about "making profits for the Man". There's a mental health aspect as well. Lockdown is disastrous for many people. Getting out and about puts less strain on the NHS.

Ive just lost a part time job that was keeping me going.

Tell you what Just Fuck off with your patronising posts. You haven't a clue.

 

[wurlycurly]

Ive just lost a part time job that was keeping me going.

Tell you what Just Fuck off with your patronising posts. You haven't a clue.

I was neither patronising nor lecturing. You need to get a grip.

 

[Gramsci]

I've only just realised the city has a zero emissions scheme. Got a letter from the City of London warning me that I had driven through it last weekend, only electric/hybrid vehicles allowed. Must admit I didn't notice the signs, they let me off with a warning, it's a £130 fine normally.

Did you go through Beech Street? By the Barbican with the tunnel?

They are making that street "zero emissions" as some kind of experiment.

Its not the whole of City of London.

It was done before the pandemic as an experiment.

My Van driver mates would be more worked up about it but its so empty in the City that it does not make much difference.

City is empty still. Van Drivers I know who worked in central London are really struggling.

Most big companies are ( wisely) keeping staff on home working. Whatever Boris says. TBF some of the big capitalist firms have dealt with virus better than Boris and the Tories. They arent going to get their staff coming in every day on public transport. That is the big problem for the City. To get people back it would not work for social distancing purposes. Not everyone can cycle or walk to work.

Lot of new spaces for pedestrians etc but no one is coming into work in the City. Im starting to wonder if all these new spaces for pedestrians and cyclists are really necessary.

Same with West End.

The only delivery people I know who have been doing ok are the motorbikes. One told me he is doing a lot of out of town deliveries. Long days but making a living. Moving stuff for home workers of big companies.

I see whole offices with empty desks. This is going to be long term. I find the City quite surreal place to be.Massive buildings with no people.

Big Capitalist companies are planning for the long haul and not taking notice of what that prat Boris says.

What I feel for is the small cafes.One I use is open but they have hardly any customers.

Hope all is well with you.

 

[Gramsci]

I was neither patronising nor lecturing. You need to get a grip.

You are lecturing and trying to tell me stuff like I dont know about it.

You need to get a grip.

You need to see that someone who does not not necessarily fit in with what you think does know what is happening in the real world.

I found your posts offensive and lecturing.

 

[wurlycurly]

You are lecturing and trying to tell me stuff like I dont know about it.

You need to get a grip.

You need to see that someone who does not not necessarily fit in with what you think does know what is happening in the real world.

I found your posts offensive and lecturing.

Am I not allowed to have an opinion then, because you've decided I don't live in the real world? I've said nothing extreme, I haven't attacked you, criticised you. I've simply put my point of view across.

 

[Gramsci]

Am I not allowed to have an opinion then, because you've decided I don't live in the real world? I've said nothing extreme, I haven't attacked you, criticised you. I've simply put my point of view across.

You started this. Not me. Go back and look at your posts. I never mentioned you before.

 

[sleaterkinney]

Reading this again.

Throughout this thread there has been a contempt for local democracy as seen in posts like this.

It’s not local democracy you’re after though, it’s the awkward squad having a pop at some councillors.

Brixton Liveable Neighbourhood and LTN schemes - improvements for pedestrians and cyclists

(Effra Road has been remarkably quiet this evening.)

www.urban75.net

 

[Gramsci]

It’s not local democracy you’re after though, it’s the awkward squad having a pop at some councillors.

Brixton Liveable Neighbourhood and LTN schemes - improvements for pedestrians and cyclists

(Effra Road has been remarkably quiet this evening.)

www.urban75.net

You are now sounding like my New Labour Cllrs.

Well done.

Im well aware Im regarded as a member of the "awkward squad".

It meant the Brixton Rec and Grove Adventure playground were saved.

 

[wurlycurly]

What on earth are you on about? You've accused me of patronising you, lecturing you, you've told me to fuck off. All I did was give a non-offensive opinion. There was nothing extreme about anything I said.

 

[sleaterkinney]

We live in a one party borough, not some democratic utopia ffs.