Brixton Liveable Neighbourhood and LTN schemes - improvements for pedestrians and cyclists

[thebackrow]

Whether whatever we end up with has "backing across the community" we'll probably never know.

And that's the point. The council has some objectives around traffic/air quality/climate/emissions. These schemes are part of them.

There isn't a hope in hell that everyone is going to approve. My dad's response to climate change/recycling was "I don't care, I'll be dead before its a problem". He was right (he's dead, and it didn't affect him) but his attitude had a negative effect on other people - it wasn't a view that should have been given much weight in decision making.

 

[Gramsci]

Going back to what residents actually experience here is example from the most recent "Liveable Neighbourhood"

Lambeth should rename this the Ferndale High Traffic Neighbourhood as that has been the consequences for those of us on Ferndale Road. Like other people, we have never had a major problem with traffic round here but pushing all local traffic through Ferndale Road has resulted in gridlock on numerous occasions, worse air quality and heavier traffic which is MORE dangerous for cyclists and pedestrians. Please reverse this unilateral decision as soon as possible.

Supporter comments · Please help stop the road closures in the ferndale Ward Sw47qq · Change.org

www.change.org

Lot of comments like this on effect on Ferndale road and lack of consultation.

 

[Gramsci]

And that's the point. The council has some objectives around traffic/air quality/climate/emissions. These schemes are part of them.

There isn't a hope in hell that everyone is going to approve. My dad's response to climate change/recycling was "I don't care, I'll be dead before its a problem". He was right (he's dead, and it didn't affect him) but his attitude had a negative effect on other people - it wasn't a view that should have been given much weight in decision making.

Nice.

Some peoples views should be dismissed as they don't fit into the "objectives".

 

[Gramsci]

Including the elderly who are going to die soon anyway so should not count in consultations I wonder what other categories of undesirable consultees should be iincluded on a list of those whose views should be binned straight away?

 

[thebackrow]

Some peoples views should be dismissed as they don't fit into the "objectives".

Yes. Slave owners didn't want to give up their slaves (and they were powerful enough to be appeased - big payoffs and 'apprentices' from my understanding). But if your objective is to end slavery you don't let some people carry on owning slaves.

The objective is to reduce trips by car. Some people don't want to drive less. Now there is good evidence that the majority of trips made by car in London are short, without luggage and by able bodied people. If some people don't want to stop making their short trips by car that they could make by other means - on Shakespeare Road that seems to be 'driving to Herne Hill and Brockwell Park' I don't think that justifies a change.

 

[Gramsci]

Yes. Slave owners didn't want to give up their slaves (and they were powerful enough to be appeased - big payoffs and 'apprentices' from my understanding). But if your objective is to end slavery you don't let some people carry on owning slaves.

The objective is to reduce trips by car. Some people don't want to drive less. Now there is good evidence that the majority of trips made by car in London are short, without luggage and by able bodied people. If some people don't want to stop making their short trips by car that they could make by other means - on Shakespeare Road that seems to be 'driving to Herne Hill and Brockwell Park' I don't think that justifies a change.

Pretty disgusting to try to compare slave owners to those who might be critical of this scheme.

 

[thebackrow]

Including the elderly who are going to die soon anyway so should not count in consultations I wonder what other categories of undesirable consultees should be iincluded?

Yes, well done. You've managed to misrepresent me entirely.

 

[thebackrow]

Pretty disgusting to try to compare slave owners to those who might be critical of this scheme.

Pretty disgusting to try to compare slave owners to those who might be critical of this scheme.

I'm going to double down on that. why not. We're talking about people whose actions have a negative impact on other parts of society and for which there are alternatives that don't.

I think it's a perfectly decent analogy but for some reason your instinct to support anyone who objects to a council plan over-rides any other considerations.

 

[Shippou-Sensei]

It's rather reductio ad Hitlerum in nature

 

[thebackrow]

It's rather reductio ad Hitlerum in nature

absolutely. People like Coldplay and voted for the nazis. You can't trust people Jeremy.

 

[Gramsci]

I'm going to double down on that. why not. We're talking about people whose actions have a negative impact on other parts of society and for which there are alternatives that don't.

I think it's a perfectly decent analogy but for some reason your instinct to support anyone who objects to a council plan over-rides anything else.

Its out of order analogy.

I keep saying Im critically supportive.

You won't understand that.

 

[Shippou-Sensei]

I'd have probably gone with something like smoking rather than slavery.

 

[thebackrow]

Its out of order analogy.

I keep saying Im critically supportive.

You won't understand that.

I was responding to

Including the elderly who are going to die soon anyway so should not count in consultations I wonder what other categories of undesirable consultees should be iincluded on a list of those whose views should be binned straight away?

You know that wasn't the point I was making about my dad. That's the point at which the tone got lowered here.

 

[Gramsci]

Saying that being critical of Council policy on car use is like being a supporter of slavery.

Fuck off

 

[thebackrow]

I'd have probably gone with something like smoking rather than slavery.

on reflection that might have been a good idea. However, I think that rather like smoking, once there are low traffic neighbourhoods across Lambeth I suspect no-one will be campaigning to remove them. Much like no-one is campaigning to allow smoking back into pubs, but when it was going to be banned there were the same sort of people claiming it was a massive imposition on their liberty and they were going to keep doing it anyway.

Should each pub have had it's regulars vote on whether they wanted to ban smoking in that pub or not? (Germany did take something like that approach as I understand it - if it's a small bar with a single member of staff and they are a smoker then customers are allowed to as well)

 

[teuchter]

Going back to what residents actually experience here is example from the most recent "Liveable Neighbourhood"

Supporter comments · Please help stop the road closures in the ferndale Ward Sw47qq · Change.org

www.change.org

Lot of comments like this on effect on Ferndale road and lack of consultation.

Have you been along to Ferndale Road to see what's actually happening?

 

[thebackrow]

Saying that being critical of Council policy on car use is like being a supporter of slavery.

Fuck off

again, that's not what I said. I was trying to give you an analogy of another issue where freedom of choice had impacts on society so that you might consider whether people who don't like the low traffic neighbourhoods schemes should be accommodated or not.

but it seems you've realised it's holed your argument below the waterline so resort to insults.

 

[thebackrow]

Have you been along to Ferndale Road to see what's actually happening?

yes, a mess at the moment. Google was still routing people down there yesterday so law abiding motorists turning back at the signs meant Ferndale Road was busy. Also only half the scheme has been put in so far.

 

[Gramsci]

again, that's not what I said. I was trying to give you an analogy of another issue where freedom of choice had impacts on society so that you might consider whether people who don't like the low traffic neighbourhoods schemes should be accommodated or not.

but it seems you've realised it's holed your argument below the waterline so resort to insults.

You used the analogy of slavery. Its out of order.

 

[teuchter]

yes, a mess at the moment. Google was still routing people down there yesterday so law abiding motorists turning back at the signs meant Ferndale Road was busy. Also only half the scheme has been put in so far.

Ok cheers.

Lambeth ought really to be doing their best to communicate this to people, I don't know if they are at all.

 

[Shakesperian]

clear road - more speed!!

 

[Shakesperian]

And these are the 'pretty spots" a cyclist group has been illegally painting on the highway - 'foolish carbuncles' is a better term I think.
What are they for - to confuse people or invite children to play on the road??

 

[thebackrow]

I'd guess they're inspired by the ones Lambeth painted outside Richard Atkins School on New Park Road?

 

[teuchter]

clear road - more speed!!

Have you noticed a big reduction in traffic since they put the gate in?

 

[Shakesperian]

Well, Shakespeare Road was never actually that busy !
It's lost it liveliness - dingy ghetto under bridge and long time residents now have no access to local amenities north side of Shakespeare - split the community and heavy trucks are increasing.

 

[teuchter]

Well, Shakespeare Road was never actually that busy !
It's lost it liveliness - dingy ghetto under bridge and long time residents now have no access to local amenities north side of Shakespeare - split the community and heavy trucks are increasing.

We can come back to the other stuff but I wanted to clarify whether the road being less busy is a problem for you.

You say it was never that busy - but it must have been fairly busy if it was enough to slow lorries down because they were following other traffic. There must have been essentially a continuous flow. And you also miss this continuous flow because it made things feel more lively?

 

[wurlycurly]

And these are the 'pretty spots" a cyclist group has been illegally painting on the highway - 'foolish carbuncles' is a better term I think.
What are they for - to confuse people or invite children to play on the road??

The spots look great! People were obsessively (every day) removing or breaking the signs warning of a £130 fine and lots (and I mean lots) of drivers were powering on through. I think fewer drivers are doing that now.

 

[Gramsci]

again, that's not what I said. I was trying to give you an analogy of another issue where freedom of choice had impacts on society so that you might consider whether people who don't like the low traffic neighbourhoods schemes should be accommodated or not.

but it seems you've realised it's holed your argument below the waterline so resort to insults.

Ive posted again and again here Im critically supportive of these schemes.

The Council put in theses schemes at neighbourhood level and people were told after the temporary scheme ended local residents in neighbourhoods would have a say in whether its altered or kept.

Im not putting an argument here about freedom of choice. Or whether people who didnt like LTN should be accomodated.

I am saying the Council should be kept to its word about the consultation.

Take Railton - it could be that the Shakespeare road bit after further consultation at end of the temporary period would be removed. But the Railton road section kept if that gets residents support.

I dont live in that neighbourhood - I do think those that do should have say in how roads work in that area. Be they Council tenants/ homeowners/ car owners/ or non car owners.

If as has been said here that car ownership is low it should not be to difficult for the Council to get support for its schemes in that case.

On Railton road bit looks like there is support for that bit of the scheme.

 

[madolesance]

In Covid-19 Recovery, London Bets Big on Low Traffic

 

[snowy_again]

And these are the 'pretty spots" a cyclist group has been illegally painting on the highway - 'foolish carbuncles' is a better term I think.
What are they for - to confuse people or invite children to play on the road??

I think they just do it to annoy you.