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Brixton Liveable Neighbourhood and LTN schemes - improvements for pedestrians and cyclists

another example of this would be couriers adjusting their delivery routes to make then more compact - how many times have you seen 3 different Amazon guys on the same street at the same time ?
Yup.
Can't remember where I read it now, but recently saw something by someone who used to work in logistics saying that it was actually quite shocking how cheap it is to transport stuff by road in the UK, meaning that loads of things would shuttle around in lorries/vans all over the place to solve problems that could be solved more intelligently if there was the incentive to do so.
 
A sort-of interesting comment from a builder this afternoon, saying that the current "traffic situation" has made them decide that they are going to start focusing on doing jobs that are local (Brixton/Streatham) rather than all over London.

It's not that uncommon for small builders to have jobs on the go in various parts of London, which means a lot of shuttling around in vans, and/or lengthy journeys at the beginning and end of each day.

If the current arrangements mean that people increasingly look for more local work then I can't see that this is a bad thing. It doesn't really make sense for someone based in Enfield to be doing a loft conversion in Lambeth... and vice versa. It means a load of unnecessary vehicle journeys and wasted time. It's these kinds of changes in habit that allow the "traffic evaporation" that some refuse to believe in, happen. It doesn't happen instantly which is why you have to give things time.
That's the approach I took when I had my electrician business - I ONLY worked locally - if I travelled 5 miles it was rare. Just made much more sense, since I hated driving and there was more than enough work. It meant I could provide a much better after service to clients as well - no problem to pop back to make small adjustments etc.
 
Yup.
Can't remember where I read it now, but recently saw something by someone who used to work in logistics saying that it was actually quite shocking how cheap it is to transport stuff by road in the UK, meaning that loads of things would shuttle around in lorries/vans all over the place to solve problems that could be solved more intelligently if there was the incentive to do so.

Yes the Amazon vans will be coming from different Amazon depots, if you road charge the city couriers - Amazon will consolidate at the warehouses where transport is free and do more drops per van mile.
 
Council officers have been talking about improving logistics for some time. Perhaps this could have been done before implementing LTNs.

As a point of information "couriers" can't just adjust their routes. The companies they work for give them the parcels and they are expected to just get on with it.

They are however the ones who have to deal with alterations to roads.

The Councils/ central Government need to take up logistics with the bosses of these delivery companies. Not just expect the poor courier to deal with it.

Secondly if people are expected to use cars less they are going to rely more on having things delivered. Especially as Lockdown has introduced a lot of people to online shopping.

There is already system of logistics in place. A lot of people get parcels delivered to local shops. Some shops have deals with delivery companies to keep stuff for customers. So one van can deliver to the shop parcels for that area.
 
Officers I remember did talk about smart cities. One thing is last mile deliveries. Set up depots to store parcels. Use electric vehicles/ cargo bikes for last mile.

This is separate issue to LTNs.
 
Also on logistics it always surprises me how some fairly big companies don't think more before ordering couriers. They would save themselves money if they did.
 
As a point of information "couriers" can't just adjust their routes. The companies they work for give them the parcels and they are expected to just get on with it.

yes, the bloke in the van in the van does what dpd, Amazon etc tell them to do.

courier firms will re route couriers - they don’t want to pay more per parcel
 
Officers I remember did talk about smart cities. One thing is last mile deliveries. Set up depots to store parcels. Use electric vehicles/ cargo bikes for last mile.

This is separate issue to LTNs.

this could even just be an empty depot for transshipment.
 
yes, the bloke in the van in the van does what dpd, Amazon etc tell them to do.

courier firms will re route couriers - they don’t want to pay more per parcel

Not sure what you mean.

Except for Pedal Me most courier companies pay per drop. If you as courier take more time to drop you don't get paid more.
 
Pedal Me - the e-assist courier company launched a crowdcube funding drive with a target of £150k. Yesterday they were at £600k of supporters. Much less polluting and less congestion.

Pedal me did start out as a bike taxi service. That hasn't taken off.

Most courier companies are now acquiring Cargo bikes. Which they rent to the couriers. Think they have realised its a paying option as they can recoup costs by getting couriers to pay for using them.

Most courier firms will adopt green transport if they can still make money out of the couriers by doing it.

One company rebranded themselves as Green Couriers some time back.

From what I know Pedal Me don't use the usual courier business model.
 
If LTNs make courier business move to more green transport options you can be sure this won't be done at expense or risk to the owners. Small owner van drivers may lose out. This won't cost the business owners anything. In courier industry the default model is to off load risk downwards onto the ordinary courier.
 
snowy_again is this the right crowd funder?


From what I've been told by riders its courier firm that treats its workforce well. Decent regular money and job security plus training. Unlike a lot of the industry.
 
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I did think a major argument in Lambeth by Council was that a lot of car traffic is just going through Brixton. Coming from wealthy areas in South London and using poorer working class areas central Brixton and Loughborough junction as convenient transit points to central London. They were not visiting /working in/delivering in Lambeth.

In particular Railton LTN was justified in thus way. Council did same with the failed Loughborough junction road closures.

So I don't understand recent posts on trades people delivery people being made to rethink work practices due to new LTNs. As if this is part of reason for LTNs

Previous post of mine quoted Sadiq who said LTNs would reduce unnecessary traffic leaving roads free for those who need them for work reasons across London.

So LTNs in theory are supposed to make it easier for those who use roads for work to get around. Not make them be forced to change how they work.
 
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So I don't understand recent posts on trades people delivery people being made to rethink work practices due to new LTNs. As if this is part of reason for LTNs
Teutcher's builder didn't say that his decision was a result of LTN's, though. He said 'the traffic situation'. That could be due to LTN's, but given the relatively small area that are covered by LTN's, it's also likely to be due to roadworks and the general increase in traffic due to the pandemic.

In my personal case, I made the decision to work locally 15 years ago, when LTN's didn't exist. To me it made economic sense not to waste my valuable time and petrol money stuck in traffic making journeys that I didn't need to do. This is what LTN's have been brought in to encourage as I understand it. On the plus side it was also great for my mental health (less stress) and customer relations. Quite often I worked in my own parking permit zone, and clients were delighted they didn't have to give me a permit!
 
There is already system of logistics in place. A lot of people get parcels delivered to local shops. Some shops have deals with delivery companies to keep stuff for customers. So one van can deliver to the shop parcels for that area.

I use this system and I think it should be the default, with an option for home delivery if you are in, but you have to actively chose it. I also see safe boxes at some locations (for Amazon, BooHoo) and these to me make perfect sense. Especially as less people are at home now. Much more convenient to go to one of these (or a shop) when you are out and about to collect your small parcel at a time to suit you. And leave home deliveries for larger items only. And presumably this system is better for the drivers?
 
Changing routes/strategies for delivery vehicles might not be specifically named as an aim of Lambeth's LTNs but at a city wide level, introduction of LTNs along with other things is part of a general policy to reduce overall capacity on the road network. If it didn't reduce overall capacity then no-one could make the argument that in the longer term, it reduces the overall amount of traffic, including on main roads. That's traffic evaporation and without it, then of course the main roads would simply become loads busier with displaced traffic. Some people deny that this happens, but the arguments have been gone over a million times already on this thread.

If you change the overall capacity and also change with roads are through roads, then of course delivery companies will have to make some changes to the way they do things.

While I can see that this may well cause some short-medium term pain for delivery drivers while the system re-organises itself, I don't think it's true to say that the burden is simply shifted to the drivers in the longer term. The delivery companies already pay drivers (I'd assume) pretty much the lowest they can get away with. That means that if the amount a driver can make in a day reduces much further, the companies will start to find that drivers no longer want to work for them. The incentive will be for the delivery companies to adjust things so that on average drivers can make a similar sort of amount of money per day. How they do that exactly I don't know but I'd imagine it would be a mixture of changing what areas are allocated to what drivers, and maybe increasing the pay per drop if they have to. Perhaps changing the mix of vehicles they use to include some that can go through LTN gates.

If anyone ends up taking on the consequences of these changes it'll be the end customer. Delivery/collection charges might go up a little. Perhaps pricing will be changed to encourage more picking up at local hubs like local shops. That's all fine with me; I would say that delivery charges are probably too low as it is, making it too easy for people (including me) to order loads of stuff to their door which has consequences for the amount of traffic on the roads generally.

Yes, all this amounts to quite a bit of disruption and the transition won't necessarily be easy for delivery drivers. Some jobs might disappear and new ones might appear. The Pedal Me thing has already been mentioned. I would say that in any case, without any LTNs being involved, the pandemic by itself would have caused all sorts of changes in the delivery industry. Many things are in flux just now and we'll not know exactly how things are going to shake out until some time has passed.

I talk to one of my regular Hermes drivers when she delivers stuff. A few months ago she told me she was thinking of giving up, because of the amount of workload they were pushing on her. When I last saw her, last week, she was still doing it and was telling me that Hermes have been bought out, and she was waiting to see if this was going to result in changes in working conditions. It seemed like she was hopeful it might make things better; I've no idea if that's realistic. In any case, lots of things are changing right now. For example I've been following the story of a company that is going to start transporting parcels by rail, with trains being loaded/unloaded at stations and forwarded on by small vehicles. This has the potential to allow delivery companies to get things moved in bulk into city-centre locations without putting lorries on the roads - rather than relying on distribution centres located on the periphery and then multiple road vehicles driving into the city. In fact this (if successful) is in some way a return to how things were delivered before we shifted nearly all of our goods transportation to road-based systems. Approaches such as this one are encouraged by making it less convenient for delivery companies to do everything by lorry and van. I would see it as a reversal of changes that were made in the mid 20th century that turned so much of our urban areas into traffic dominated disasters, with all the consequent things like air pollution.
 
Being a bit of a rail nerd (not trainspotting I hasten to add), there’s a big move towards electric freight as a primary way to decarbonise. It’s not easy as you have to invest in the infrastructure up front but costs should fall, the more you do. It’s happening in the EU now (probably means we’ll do the opposite) so I will see what happens here
 
Yes, although conventional rail freight in this country tends only to work economically for bulk transport of things like aggregate, or for intermodal (shipping container) traffic between docks and distribution hubs. It's certainly a good idea to increase electrification (in many cases the difference is made by electrifying short sections at each end of a run... much traffic runs hauled by diesel but under electric wires for 90% of its journey).

What's interesting about this new service for parcel type traffic is that it's an entirely different segment of the market, one that used to be carried by rail but which has almost entirely transferred to road transport during the past few decades. Some info about one of them here.
 
Voting for whom? No council seats are up for election, and the LTNs have nothing to do with the Mayor or the GLA (who only control trunk routes)
But why else would they be against the brown, Muslim, left wing* Mayor?


*not by the standards of uk p&p.
 
OneLambeth now asking for £5k more.

Not sure how Lambeth are moving the goal posts. Experimental Traffic Orders allow for tweaks as I understand it.

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Voting for whom? No council seats are up for election, and the LTNs have nothing to do with the Mayor or the GLA (who only control trunk routes)

Not directly. Khan however has made clear he supports Councils putting in these LTNs now without the usual consultation.

Some of the TFL funding for the now defunct Brixton Liveable Neighbourhood has been used for LTN in Brixton area. In that way Khan could be said to be involved.

I think there are various reasons not to vote for Khan. I've still not decided yet whether to vote for him.
 
Happily heading out to vote for Khan now! Screw the tories who created this whole mess, and most all the other ones. I feel bullish; I even have Tory colleagues who say they can’t vote for Bailey.
 
Obviously single issue independents are never going to poll highly but I think this puts to bed the argument that there’s tons of opposition to LTNs.

I hope the media coverage starts to reflect this and we can look at the monitoring and consultations and then judge these properly.

Also councillors in inner London probably shouldn’t be too worried about trying these.
 
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