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Brixton Liveable Neighbourhood and LTN schemes - improvements for pedestrians and cyclists

I thought with pandemic the jury is stilll out on effect on non LTN roads?

As pandemic is an exceptional situation. Thus stats and comparing past years and now is not going to say much.
 
Given that LTNs are supposed to encourage people to get out of their cars and use public transport I would like to see an improvement in public transport alongside introducing LTNs across London.

My partner has told me she is giving up on using Loughborough Junction railway station as the service is rubbish. Cancelled trains both to work and back meaning she is late for work and late getting home. This happens on regular basis.

I do think if this Tory government in partnership with New Labour Council want to put LTNs across Lamebeth they should sort out public transport.

It not as if trains and underground are cheap to use.
 
Gramsci said:
I thought with pandemic the jury is stilll out on effect on non LTN roads?
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I think that is wrong this is the pattern of traffic on the A12 in Hackney Wick (a point which is which nowhere near any LTN incidentally, so this is the background traffic in London I presume). This pattern of traffic is repeated time after time on nearly all roads I have looked at including those roads which are adjacent to LTNs

ddd.JPG
 
toblerone3 said:
I think that is wrong this is the pattern of traffic on the A12 in Hackney Wick (a point which is which nowhere near any LTN incidentally, so this is the background traffic in London I presume). This pattern of traffic is repeated time after time on nearly all roads I have looked at including those roads which are adjacent to LTNs

View attachment 239319
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These are averages?

As the photos that editor puts up ( and Ive seen) are from early evening. CHL is gridlocked now in Brixton section in early evening.

Im surprised the background traffic has gone back up.

A lot of the van drivers I know are not back at work going in and out of central London.

I talked to UPS driver today. Central London is quiet. Its the outer residential area that are very busy.

If London economy changes from being based around the City then traffic will alter.

The City is ghost town.
 
Gramsci said:
These are averages?

As the photos that editor puts up ( and Ive seen) are from early evening. CHL is gridlocked now in Brixton section in early evening.

Im surprised the background traffic has gone back up.

A lot of the van drivers I know are not back at work going in and out of central London.

I talked to UPS driver today. Central London is quiet. Its the outer residential area that are very busy.

If London economy changes from being based around the City then traffic will alter.

The City is ghost town.
Click to expand...

These are individual counts on individual roads at particular points on those road. Its only averages in the sense that I have graphed 7 day rolling averages to smooth out the zig zaggy patterns.

The underlying data is a lot more spikey. Traffic on Fridays is 10-15% higher than on Mondays. It is possible that peak hours have become busier in relation to the off peak. and than is causing congestion and queues, but I doubt that personally. I have no doubt that the Pandemic is altering traffic patterns around the city I just think that there is very little evidence that it is due to LTNs.
 
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toblerone3 said:
The underlying data is a lot more spikey. Traffic on Fridays is 10-15% higher than on Mondays. It is possible that peak hours have become busier in relation to the off peak. and than is causing congestion and queues, but I doubt that personally. I have no doubt that the Pandemic is altering traffic patterns around the city I just think that there is very little evidence that it is due to LTNs.
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I have no access to data as Lambeth don't supply any but anecdotally, there's been a shitload more traffic along Coldharbour Lane since they closed off two roads that connect to it.

Road works certainly added to the jams, but my feeling is that closing off Shakespeare Road definitely contributed something to the mix.
 
Gramsci said:
Given that LTNs are supposed to encourage people to get out of their cars and use public transport I would like to see an improvement in public transport alongside introducing LTNs across London.

My partner has told me she is giving up on using Loughborough Junction railway station as the service is rubbish. Cancelled trains both to work and back meaning she is late for work and late getting home. This happens on regular basis.

I do think if this Tory government in partnership with New Labour Council want to put LTNs across Lamebeth they should sort out public transport.

It not as if trains and underground are cheap to use.
Click to expand...
Pretty much all nationalised now but I wouldn’t hold your breath that things will improve. Passenger numbers have fallen off a cliff and if they don’t return, expect massive service cuts. I think crossrail might be in doubt now
 
Not a Vet said:
Pretty much all nationalised now but I wouldn’t hold your breath that things will improve. Passenger numbers have fallen off a cliff and if they don’t return, expect massive service cuts. I think crossrail might be in doubt now
Click to expand...

nearly all of the money is spent on cross rail, trains are running on the lines - it’s not in doubt
 
toblerone3 said:
Its TfL count data. There will certainly be TfL count data on a number of roads in Lambeth.
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The same TFL who give PTAL ratings for areas that are used in planning applications?

In LJ local residents keep saying that from their personal experience the pressure on public transport is high and new large residential developments will make it worse.

Lambeth planning officers use PTAL to say its fine. Its always works in the officers favour. Not surprising.

So their is a difference imo between number crunching/ stats from above and people on the ground experience and knowledge of local areas.

Officials like in Lambeth Council are always keen to dismiss local knowledge as partial and biased.

Unlike public bodies like TFL/ Councils - in theory.
 
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Not a Vet said:
Not in the central section which is delayed again, there’s a chance of mothballing
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The end to end signalling integration isn’t completed and scheduled trains aren’t running through - but it has been possible to run a train all the way though for more than 3 years Elizabeth line permanent track installation is complete

suspect with the way contracts will be structured - mothballing it won’t save much money

eg the trains are all being rented and suspect most are in store at full cost

www.railmagazine.com

TfL agrees £1 billion sale and leaseback deal for Elizabeth Line trains

Seventy Class 345s sold to consortium as Transport for London raises funds to reinvest
www.railmagazine.com www.railmagazine.com

yes the above is mental for an org who in 2018 could probably borrow at better rates than most medium sized countries
 
Gramsci said:
The same TFL who give PTAL ratings for areas that are used in planning applications?

In LJ local residents keep saying that from their personal experience the pressure on public transport is high and new large residential developments will make it worse.

Lambeth planning officers use PTAL to say its fine. Its always works in the officers favour. Not surprising.

So their is a difference imo between number crunching/ stats from above and people on the ground experience and knowledge of local areas.

Officials like in Lambeth Council are always keen to dismiss local knowledge as partial and biased.

Unlike public bodies like TFL/ Councils - in theory.
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PTAL is a relatively objective measure, with known limitations, and I don't think it claims to capture overcrowding (I'd have to check that)

I'd agree that some of the new development in LJ has relied on questionable transport assessments. I wouldn't really blame that on "wrong" PTAL numbers though - it's more to do with the quality of the transport assessments (done by private consultants paid for by the developer) and Lambeth planning officers' failure to scrutinise them properly. Any kind of measures like PTAL rely on sensible interpretation.

So do traffic counts - but a traffic count is a traffic count - it's pretty simple; a number of vehicles that pass a certain point in a certain time. You can't really fiddle that - except perhaps by choosing the locations in a certain way.

Are you suggesting that TfL are deliberately choosing traffic count locations to tell the particular story they want, something like that?

The fact is: yes local knowledge is valuable but also there's no doubt that what people tell you is going to be biased. I'm a Loughbrough Junction resident and what I tell you about LJ's transport issues will be biased. I'll tend to focus on the issues that affect me and I'll selectively notice the things that support my version of what the affects of changes are. My account of what happened in LJ during the road closures - the level of congestion on CHL and so on - seems to be very different to the account you'll hear from those who were vociferously opposed to the changes.

I live on a road which might be suspected to carry traffic that's been diverted by the Railton LTN. I've read comments from people on the one lambeth group saying that they live on this same road and that the traffic has been terrible since the LTN. Me, I have not noticed any substantial difference. Who's right? The only way to tell would be a traffic count.

Traffic counts seem to me one of the most objective things you can look at. I wish that they were done in more locations and more consistently.
 
teuchter said:
PTAL is a relatively objective measure, with known limitations, and I don't think it claims to capture overcrowding (I'd have to check that)

I'd agree that some of the new development in LJ has relied on questionable transport assessments. I wouldn't really blame that on "wrong" PTAL numbers though - it's more to do with the quality of the transport assessments (done by private consultants paid for by the developer) and Lambeth planning officers' failure to scrutinise them properly. Any kind of measures like PTAL rely on sensible interpretation.

So do traffic counts - but a traffic count is a traffic count - it's pretty simple; a number of vehicles that pass a certain point in a certain time. You can't really fiddle that - except perhaps by choosing the locations in a certain way.

Are you suggesting that TfL are deliberately choosing traffic count locations to tell the particular story they want, something like that?

The fact is: yes local knowledge is valuable but also there's no doubt that what people tell you is going to be biased. I'm a Loughbrough Junction resident and what I tell you about LJ's transport issues will be biased. I'll tend to focus on the issues that affect me and I'll selectively notice the things that support my version of what the affects of changes are. My account of what happened in LJ during the road closures - the level of congestion on CHL and so on - seems to be very different to the account you'll hear from those who were vociferously opposed to the changes.

I live on a road which might be suspected to carry traffic that's been diverted by the Railton LTN. I've read comments from people on the one lambeth group saying that they live on this same road and that the traffic has been terrible since the LTN. Me, I have not noticed any substantial difference. Who's right? The only way to tell would be a traffic count.

Traffic counts seem to me one of the most objective things you can look at. I wish that they were done in more locations and more consistently.
Click to expand...

Ive seen consistently planning officers use PTAL to dismiss residents concerns.

Yes I think officials will use locations to tell the particular story they want.

The Council officers are not the neutral professionals that one would expect them to be. With the training and resources to give unbiased advice and reports.

Most recently that has been seen with the Hondo planning application. Were these professionals abused their position to support the developer. Even though the application went against planning guidelines.

Ive also spent several years with these middle class professionals tell me that there was no demand for an adventure playground in LJ. That to quote one of these highly paid people I was not "sensible". Turned out me Joe Bloggs was right and they the experts , who are paid to make right decisions based on the objective evidence were talking shit. Did anyone one of these highly paid people lose their job over that? No.

Even worse when they were consulting on the site and found that residents werent having it they altered the consultation results. Took months of argument to get the leader of Council to finally say in letter that results would be rectified. ie the officers altered the findings to suit what they wanted to do.

So no I dont trust so called objective studies. I don't trust public officers involved in planning/ the public realm.

Does not mean I won't deal with them or try to behave in civil way. Its that I have realistic view of what they do.
 
Gramsci said:
Ive seen consistently planning officers use PTAL to dismiss residents concerns.

Yes I think officials will use locations to tell the particular story they want.

The Council officers are not the neutral professionals that one would expect them to be. With the training and resources to give unbiased advice and reports.

Most recently that has been seen with the Hondo planning application. Where these professionals abused their position to support the developer. Even though the application went against planning guidelines.

Ive also spent several years with these middle class professionals tell me that there was no demand for an adventure playground in LJ. That to quote one of these highly paid people I was not "sensible". Turned out me Joe Bloggs was right and they the experts , who are paid to make right decisions based on the objective evidence were talking shit. Did anyone one of these highly paid people lose their job over that? No.

Even worse when they were consulting on the site and found that residents werent having it they altered the consultation results. Took months of argument to get the leader of Council to finally say in letter that results would be rectified. ie the officers altered the findings to suit what they wanted to do.

So no I dont trust so called objective studies. I don't trust public officers involved in planning/ the public realm.

Does not mean I won't deal with them or try to behave in civil way. Its that I have realistic view of what they do.
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Yes, you've said all this loads of times before.

I don't think you read what I wrote. I'm not trying to defend the way council officers use PTAL numbers or anything else. I'm saying that the PTAL numbers themselves are relatively objective (with known limitations), as are traffic counts. How people then use them is another matter.
 
teuchter said:
Yes, you've said all this loads of times before.

I don't think you read what I wrote. I'm not trying to defend the way council officers use PTAL numbers or anything else. I'm saying that the PTAL numbers themselves are relatively objective (with known limitations), as are traffic counts. How people then use them is another matter.
Click to expand...

I keep saying it as you keep saying there are these objective studies.

Been loads of post with pushing this "objective" angle.

You do it.

I have to repeat myself as the onging narrative on this thread is:

Anyone objecting to LTNs is a nutter who posts on Twitter or One Lambeth FB. So lots of re posts of FB and Twitter to make anyone oppossing LTNs look stupid.

In opposition to that is the people who post up here all the graphs/ studies who are objective and rational to support LTNs


Im pointing out that not all these objective studies are that neutral.

I also object to way that ordinary people views can be dismissed as biased. Whilst State Functionaries are considered neutral and objective. It is that there finding are used in wrong way.

The pubic civil service is not neutral.

Ive pointed this out with recent issues in Brixton.
 
I certainly don't recall saying that state functionaries or the public civil service are "neutral".

Nor that there is any such thing as a purely objective study.
 
a
teuchter said:
I certainly don't recall saying that state functionaries or the public civil service are "neutral".

Nor that there is any such thing as a purely objective study.
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Yes - they clearly aren’t they are executing Lambeth’s strategy which is develop, develop, develop.

or more cynically - encourage as much business rates as possible
 
Here's a Telegraph journalist having a rant against a giant strawman - that LTNs and other policies are supposed to convert everyone to cycling, or that there's a claim that "a silent majority are desperate to take up cycling".

It makes no sense. How could a majority of people possibly agree with one of the most insane transport policies of the past 50 years (and that is saying something)? In an article justifying the Government’s so-called low traffic neighbourhood programme, the Transport Secretary Grant Shapps last week suggested that there is “a silent majority” desperate to take up cycling if only someone would spend hundreds of millions of pounds carving up the roads to make it easier to do so.
This is the language of the fanatic. Motorists aren’t free actors making an active choice to drive, they are just potential “converts” to the great cycling religion. Evidence that people have priorities other than building cycle lanes or turning streets into no through roads or any of the other green innovations that have been foisted on places with little consideration as to whether they are appropriate is curiously glossed over.
Click to expand...

www.telegraph.co.uk

I am a motorist, not a potential convert to the great cycling religion

It makes no sense.
www.telegraph.co.uk www.telegraph.co.uk
 
editor said:
A piece about those on-trend street planters
www.brixtonbuzz.com

The rise – and perhaps inevitable fall – of wooden street planters around Brixton

Right now, street planters are the go-to urban accessory, with Lambeth spending big and erecting wooden structures all around the borough as part of their controversial Low Traffic Neighbourhood sc…
www.brixtonbuzz.com www.brixtonbuzz.com
Click to expand...
I understood that the current planters used to create the LTN's are temporary (and all Lambeth could afford with the funds given by TfL) but that if the LTN's are adopted after the trial period, then they will be replaced with something (what, I have no clue) more substantial. MInd you if Lambeth or TfL have any money left in a years time, I'll be amazed!
 
IMPORTANT

Dear OneLambeth,

We would like to announce that today we have served our Judicial Review application to the court against Lambeth Council for their undemocratic implementation of Low Traffic Neighbourhoods across the borough.

Thank you to those of you who have donated to the GoFundMe page and have worked so hard to contribute and raise awareness across the community. The money raised to date has been used to cover the cost of the application.
This is one of the early, but important, stages of the process so please continue to donate to the Gofundmepage so that we can push this all the way.
We do not walk alone. We follow in the footsteps of several other London boroughs fighting similar LTN injustice.
Thanks again to you all and we await the judges decision on whether we have a case to be heard in court!
Click to expand...
.
 
sparkybird said:
I understood that the current planters used to create the LTN's are temporary (and all Lambeth could afford with the funds given by TfL) but that if the LTN's are adopted after the trial period, then they will be replaced with something (what, I have no clue) more substantial. MInd you if Lambeth or TfL have any money left in a years time, I'll be amazed!
Click to expand...

I saw on FB that Croydon has already started to replace the wooden things with concrete...even though they are still in the trial period.
 
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