Brixton Liveable Neighbourhood and LTN schemes - improvements for pedestrians and cyclists

[Rushy]

Yes if you are trying to affect an actual decision outcome JRs are a waste of time imo; even if you win the JR it just gets sent back to the decision-making body who re-run the decision as a tick box exercise and hey presto! they get to do what they originally decided. It's much like the whole concept of top-down "consultation", it's pretty much always bogus.

Quite. It does not look at the quality of the decision. Only whether the right steps were followed. It can be useful if approval is required from another body, for instance, and that was not sought.

 

[teuchter]

On the one lambeth group they are saying that if they "win" the JR on Lambeth's LTNs, then this puts a stop to Lambeth implementing any more. Is that right? But only until Lambeth show they have changed their decision making process, or something?

 

[Winot]

On the one lambeth group they are saying that if they "win" the JR on Lambeth's LTNs, then this puts a stop to Lambeth implementing any more. Is that right? But only until Lambeth show they have changed their decision making process, or something?

They are talking bollocks I think.

 

[Rushy]

On the one lambeth group they are saying that if they "win" the JR on Lambeth's LTNs, then this puts a stop to Lambeth implementing any more. Is that right? But only until Lambeth show they have changed their decision making process, or something?

It depends what they are saying was wrong with the decision making process and whether carrying out the correct procedures will be fatal to the original outcome. So, if the part of the process that was missed was consultation, then Lambeth will do a fudge consultation and come up with the same scheme. But if the part of the process that was missed was something like getting sign off from taxi drivers, for instance, then it might be fatal.

 

[teuchter]

I get the impression they are going in on some kind of equalities basis. Disadvantage to people with protected characteristics, didn't do an impact assessment etc.

They've managed to raise going on for £10k just by telling people that some lawyers have assured them that they've got a good case, anyway.

 

[snowy_again]

Il not really sure they know what they want other than unhindered car driving.

They were saying yesterday that adults shouldn’t be allowed to ride with children (in child seats) and that children shouldn’t be allowed to ride on the road that they (as drivers) paid for.

 

[teuchter]

Il not really sure they know what they want other than unhindered car driving.

They were saying yesterday that adults shouldn’t be allowed to ride with children (in child seats) and that children shouldn’t be allowed to ride on the road that they (as drivers) paid for.

There seem to be quite a few people who are "not just motorists but cyclists too" who also "would never ride a bike in London because it's so dangerous".

 

[teuchter]

Returning to earlier discussions about whether residents should be exempt from the LTN restrictions via ANPR cameras, here is what Lambeth are currently saying, apparently.

To some extent it matches my views.

Dear xxxxx,

Please accept my apologies for the delay in responding to this petition.

When implementing the emergency low traffic neighbourhoods (LTNs) across the borough careful consideration was given to what, if any, exemptions should be allowed to the no-motor vehicle restriction signs used to create modal filters.
Currently, we do not support providing exemptions using Automatic Number Plate Recognition (ANPR) cameras to residents living within LTNs under the emergency programme for a variety of reasons. We are committed to treating residents living with an LTN area the same as those living outside an LTN. And we do not consider it desirable as a local authority to create what would be in effect private roads. In any such exemption approach consideration would need to be given also, for example, to non-car owning residents who may feel they should be entitled to have friends or family who visit to be exempt in the same way as their car-owning neighbours’ own vehicles are exempt. These are just some examples which I hope explains the some of the complexities of any such proposal as well as how such a proposal undermines the principle of a low traffic neighbourhood.
We have been collecting feedback on how the emergency LTNs have been working as well as objective data on traffic flows to provide us with a good body of evidence to see what improvements are necessary. As soon as we have analysed the data and feedback we will ensure that this is shared with residents. I would encourage you to continue to provide your feedback, which is extremely helpful in assisting us to understand local issues and to improve the emergency schemes.
Thank you very much for your patience and I apologise once again for the delay in responding to your petition.
Best wishes,
Cllr Claire Holland
Deputy Leader (Sustainable Transport, Environment & Clean Air)

 

[Jeanette Moo]

Many residents were hoping for some kind of exemption or compromise

 

[Gramsci]

Cllr Claire Holland email reply has all the hallmarks of the arrogant way the New Labour One party State is run in Lambeth.

Continue with your feedback which we will ignore if we dont agree with it.

Sounds all to familiar to me.

 

[Gramsci]

We have been collecting feedback on how the emergency LTNs have been working as well as objective data on traffic flows to provide us with a good body of evidence to see what improvements are necessary. As soon as we have analysed the data and feedback we will ensure that this is shared with residents.

So what Cllr Holland is saying is that the Council will be using data it has decided is objective.

Way I read this is that residents comments on the Commonplace websites are a waste of time as Council will ignore them.

I have little faith in Council being objective.

 

[Gramsci]

Many residents were hoping for some kind of exemption or compromise

I would have hoped that the Council would have entertained this option as up for discussion as part of the ongoing consultation whilst these emergency LTNs were in place.

To just dismiss this compromise out of hand so early on imo show bad faith from the Council on consultation.

 

[sleaterkinney]

It's a good point about creating private roads, whereas now everyone has the same access.

 

[Torpid Scorpion]

I would have hoped that the Council would have entertained this option

Agree; Im disappointed they are not looking at that and it needs opposing. ”it would create a private road” is not compatible with “no roads have been made inacessible” and as you say, many are looking for that compromise, and it puts local people first.

That said...oneLambeth is a hate group.

 

[Gramsci]

Whatever one thinks of One Lambeth or LTNs a Cllr should not be dismissing a suggestion made by more than one resident.

The Council said it had to put in these measures without the usual pre consultation because of the pandemic.

Therefore it should be looking at all suggestions and comments made first.

And before rejecting suggestions putting forward how it is going to consult residents and listen to their concerns.

 

[Gramsci]

BTW the main argument for Railton LTN was to stop through traffic by people who did not live or visit the area. It ws traffic that was going through Railton area that was to be stopped.

 

[mbyrde12]

BTW the main argument for Railton LTN was to stop through traffic by people who did not live or visit the area. It ws traffic that was going through Railton area that was to be stopped.

From the letters I got it didn't specify, it simply stated 'through traffic'. I took that to mean stopping residents of the area driving from one end and out the other side too.

 

[teuchter]

Look at the first post on this thread, which includes a quote that outlines the aims. Stopping through traffic from outside the area was never the only, or even main, aim.

 

[sparkybird]

One issue I can see with ANPR for local residents is that non exempt drivers would see a vehicle going through the barriers and just follow it - and then get a fine. Drivers can be like lemmings in that respect - witness the videos posted before of the convoy of cars driving on the pavement to get round an LTN barrier.

 

[Rushy]

One issue I can see with ANPR for local residents is that non exempt drivers would see a vehicle going through the barriers and just follow it - and then get a fine. Drivers can be like lemmings in that respect - witness the videos posted before of the convoy of cars driving on the pavement to get round an LTN barrier.

I agree with that and mentioned it somewhere back in the thread. But I don't think it is insurmountable.

 

[Rushy]

From the letters I got it didn't specify, it simply stated 'through traffic'. I took that to mean stopping residents of the area driving from one end and out the other side too.

I've always taken through traffic is generally taken to mean journeys not starting or ending in the area but passing though. I.e. not local residents.

Meriam Webster.
: traffic initiated at and destined for points outside a local zone

Oxford Dictionary
Road traffic which passes through a particular town or area rather than stopping there.

So not residents starting and ending their journey there. Hope that clarifies.

 

[Gramsci]

From the letters I got it didn't specify, it simply stated 'through traffic'. I took that to mean stopping residents of the area driving from one end and out the other side too.

Here is what the Council said on the commonplace website on June 11th

Hi everyone,

I am writing to provide an update on our plans to introduce an emergency low traffic neighbourhood in the Railton area.

In line with statutory guidance provided by national government, the council will be stopping through traffic from cutting through the neighbourhood by making temporary changes to the road layout. Work will begin this weekend.

Railton LTN

Read the latest project update on Railton Neighbourhood.

rtstreets.commonplace.is

Rushy given the definition of through traffic in previous post.

Im taking sentence from the beginning of the Lambeth Council post of June 11th. So I read it as the Railton LTN was about stopping through traffic.

Cutting through reads to me as not about residents in the area of Railton LTN but those going through it.

 

[teuchter]

Here is a report trying to look at whether LTNs impact emergency vehicle response times.

Abstract

There is sometimes concern that low traffic neighbourhoods slow emergency vehicles. We test this using London Fire Brigade data (2012-2020) in Waltham Forest, where from 2015 low traffic neighbourhoods have been implemented. We find no evidence that response times were affected inside low traffic neighbourhoods, and some evidence that they improved on boundary roads. However, while the proportion of delays was unchanged, the reasons given for delays initially showed some shift from ‘no specific delay cause identified’ to ‘traffic calming measures’. Our findings indicate that low traffic neighbourhoods do not adversely affect emergency response times, although while LTNs are novel this perception may exist among some crews.

The Impact of Introducing a Low Traffic Neighbourhood on Fir

There is sometimes concern that low traffic neighbourhoods slow emergency vehicles. We test this using London Fire Brigade data (2012-2020) in Waltham Forest, where from 2015 low traffic neighbourhood

ideas.repec.org

They've only looked at the Waltham Forest one.

 

[teuchter]

One Lambeth have been purging their facebook group of the unfaithful I think - I seem to have been booted out now.

 

[ash]

One Lambeth have been purging their facebook group of the unfaithful I think - I seem to have been booted out now.

Did you say naughty things

 

[sleaterkinney]

They've only looked at the Waltham Forest one.

No change in the Islington one:

 

[snowy_again]

Here is a report trying to look at whether LTNs impact emergency vehicle response times.

The Impact of Introducing a Low Traffic Neighbourhood on Fir

There is sometimes concern that low traffic neighbourhoods slow emergency vehicles. We test this using London Fire Brigade data (2012-2020) in Waltham Forest, where from 2015 low traffic neighbourhood

ideas.repec.org

They've only looked at the Waltham Forest one.

London Ambulance Service just said the same thing to the London Assembly:

 

[teuchter]

Did you say naughty things

Not saying naughty things required one of the greatest efforts of self restraint exercised within my life so far.

 

[ash]

Not saying naughty things required one of the greatest efforts of self restraint exercised within my life so far.

Me too - but I haven't been kicked off yet. Did you see the posts about the fake onelambeth twitter account : )

 

[teuchter]

Me too - but I haven't been kicked off yet. Did you see the posts about the fake onelambeth twitter account : )

I think I saw reference to that on twitter.

Have they said anything more about the progress of their Judicial Review?