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Brixton Liveable Neighbourhood and LTN schemes - improvements for pedestrians and cyclists
- Thread starter teuchter
- Start date
wurlycurly
diss member
teuchter
je suis teuchter
Let's see whether there are many flats in, say, this postcode:
www.streetcheck.co.uk
Interesting Information for Shakespeare Road, Lambeth, London, SE24 0LA Postcode
View information about Shakespeare Road, Lambeth, London, SE240LA postcode, including population, age, housing, relationships, broadband, religion and employment
www.streetcheck.co.uk
sleaterkinney
Well-Known Member
There's loads of parking space around the Railton rd ltn. Loads.
snowy_again
Slush
Tell the LB of Hackney as they’ve got one of the biggest pan borough schemes on London.
snowy_again
Slush
I said some. I’ve lived in at least 4 flats in those streets and the ones towards Dalberg / Saltoun.
And the post above shows that almost 50% are flats.
Rushy
basically a scrotum
Not sure who is arguing what but Shakespeare Road residents made up 18% of the 438 who replied to local Railton LTN questionnaire. So 79 people.
Of those 65% owned (rather than access to) a car van or motorbike.
Of those 65% owned (rather than access to) a car van or motorbike.
thebackrow
Considerably more Brixton.
It's a really bizarre hill to die on this. Car ownership in Lambeth is low - around 40% borough wide, lower in the north, higher in the south but not by much. Census is 2011 but there regular surveys from TfL since that show there has been no significant change in level of car ownership. Pretty much all of Lambeth's streets of terraced housing have a high proportion converted into flats - enough that Lambeth has had policies trying to stop any more conversions happening once a threshold was reached to try to retain some diversity in the type of housing - and have a mixed set of residents. (https://www.lambeth.gov.uk/sites/default/files/Housing_Residential_Conversions_Study_Final Report2.pdf see the map)
I don't even know what point is trying to be made? The objective of the LTNs is to discourage driving short trips by car and to cut rat running to enable more walking and cycling. If car ownership on one street is a bit higher than average for the borough or a bit lower so what? are you saying they have cars so they should be allowed to drive more? or that there should be extra road closures to make it more difficult for them to drive?
You can probably find a small group of houses on Shakespeare Road south if you draw a very specific boundary that are still all houses and all own big fuck off wankpanzers. So? they can't drive through the filters - they can't drive the shortest way to Brixton or towards Loughborough Junction.
I'm all for on street parking to be made more expensive but then you need to deal with off street parking as well (lots of that in the council properties on the north end of Shakespeare Road) so trying to reduce car ownership through parking alone is difficult. there are more bike hangers appearing which must be reducing the number of spaces (lets have more that) and maybe increase the costs (though Lambeth is already a lot higher than some boroughs and they're not allowed to run it for a profit Charging for parking – and for other services and set charges really high)
Really you want to discourage use. and making short trips by car a bit less convenient seems a good way of doing in that. Some sort of smart charging would be better but you still wouldn't want Railton Road to be a busy racetrack again if you're tying to get people to walk and cycle more.
I don't even know what point is trying to be made? The objective of the LTNs is to discourage driving short trips by car and to cut rat running to enable more walking and cycling. If car ownership on one street is a bit higher than average for the borough or a bit lower so what? are you saying they have cars so they should be allowed to drive more? or that there should be extra road closures to make it more difficult for them to drive?
You can probably find a small group of houses on Shakespeare Road south if you draw a very specific boundary that are still all houses and all own big fuck off wankpanzers. So? they can't drive through the filters - they can't drive the shortest way to Brixton or towards Loughborough Junction.
I'm all for on street parking to be made more expensive but then you need to deal with off street parking as well (lots of that in the council properties on the north end of Shakespeare Road) so trying to reduce car ownership through parking alone is difficult. there are more bike hangers appearing which must be reducing the number of spaces (lets have more that) and maybe increase the costs (though Lambeth is already a lot higher than some boroughs and they're not allowed to run it for a profit Charging for parking – and for other services and set charges really high)
Really you want to discourage use. and making short trips by car a bit less convenient seems a good way of doing in that. Some sort of smart charging would be better but you still wouldn't want Railton Road to be a busy racetrack again if you're tying to get people to walk and cycle more.
thebackrow
Considerably more Brixton.
Most likely due to the reasons stated -= Petition: Remove guidance and funding for temporary traffic measures that cause congestion
The Government is committed to delivering a step change in levels of active travel. We know the majority of people support giving more road space to cycling and walking in their local area.
Local authorities have a duty to manage their roads for the benefit of all traffic, including cyclists and pedestrians. The more people that cycle and walk, the more road space is freed up for those who really need to drive. Encouraging more cycling and walking is a key part of the Government’s efforts to reduce harmful emissions from transport, as well as to help make people healthier.
The Emergency Active Travel Fund (EATF) was announced on 9 May and included £225 million of funding for local authorities in England. The first tranche focused on temporary changes such as pop-up cycle lanes and widened pavements, to enable social distancing and encourage active travel while public transport capacity is constrained.
Alongside the funding, the Government published additional Network Management Duty guidance. This clearly set out what the Government expects of local authorities in making changes to their road layouts to encourage cycling and walking to support a green recovery. Low-traffic neighbourhoods, school streets, and cycle facilities are some of the measures listed.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
I was helping a couple of my van driver mates today.
For them the suddent increase of LTNs across central London/ 24 hour red route buse lanes is causing them a lot of problems. Inreasing time to get to jobs and deliver. They are paid per job not per hour. They get paid for loading and unloading time but don't get paid extra if stuck in traffic.
That is how it works in delivery industry.
One yesterday was going on to me about how he blamed it on Khan.
I did try to explain to him this "revolution" in transport was coming from Shapps and this right wing Tory government. They hate the fact that people like him vote Labour and are using pandemic to give people like him a hard time. That in order to get government support for TFL this right wing Tory government was making inner London Labour Councils/ TFL/ Khan do this as part of the bailout for TFL.
This kind of bailout with conditios didn't apply for other business. At the behest of central government TFL continued to provide a service during lockdown.
Its hard argument to make as this right wing government is using this to undermine a Labour run London.
It is working. LTNs etc are being blamed in London on Labour party. Which is what my van driver mates normally vote for.
For them the suddent increase of LTNs across central London/ 24 hour red route buse lanes is causing them a lot of problems. Inreasing time to get to jobs and deliver. They are paid per job not per hour. They get paid for loading and unloading time but don't get paid extra if stuck in traffic.
That is how it works in delivery industry.
One yesterday was going on to me about how he blamed it on Khan.
I did try to explain to him this "revolution" in transport was coming from Shapps and this right wing Tory government. They hate the fact that people like him vote Labour and are using pandemic to give people like him a hard time. That in order to get government support for TFL this right wing Tory government was making inner London Labour Councils/ TFL/ Khan do this as part of the bailout for TFL.
This kind of bailout with conditios didn't apply for other business. At the behest of central government TFL continued to provide a service during lockdown.
Its hard argument to make as this right wing government is using this to undermine a Labour run London.
It is working. LTNs etc are being blamed in London on Labour party. Which is what my van driver mates normally vote for.
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teuchter
je suis teuchter
Well - the question is, should the way that Amazon etc pay their drivers determine how we plan our cities, or should it be that we plan cities for the benefit of those who live in them, and have the delivery companies adapt their distribution and pay systems to suit?
I do get it that it must be difficult for those on the sharp end of things right now, working doing deliveries (although, I suspect that even without the LTNs we'd still be looking at congestion and delay at the moment). I don't have any great suggestions as to how to deal with the short-medium term problem of delivery drivers' pay not being adjusted in line with any change in the reality of delivery times. But in the longer term, if it's true that the various changes to the road system makes doing these delivery runs a lot slower, then the delivery companies will adapt their systems. That might mean a price differential between "delivered to your door" and "delivered to local hub". For example.
Whether it's being introduced by Kahn or forced by central government only really matters if you don't agree in principle with the changes, doesn't it? If you are critically supportive of the schemes then I don't see why you need to get caught up in arguments about who is to "blame". Argue on the merits of the policies - if you actually believe in them.
I do get it that it must be difficult for those on the sharp end of things right now, working doing deliveries (although, I suspect that even without the LTNs we'd still be looking at congestion and delay at the moment). I don't have any great suggestions as to how to deal with the short-medium term problem of delivery drivers' pay not being adjusted in line with any change in the reality of delivery times. But in the longer term, if it's true that the various changes to the road system makes doing these delivery runs a lot slower, then the delivery companies will adapt their systems. That might mean a price differential between "delivered to your door" and "delivered to local hub". For example.
Whether it's being introduced by Kahn or forced by central government only really matters if you don't agree in principle with the changes, doesn't it? If you are critically supportive of the schemes then I don't see why you need to get caught up in arguments about who is to "blame". Argue on the merits of the policies - if you actually believe in them.
thebackrow
Considerably more Brixton.
One moment home deliveries are the root of all evil, responsible for the growth in traffic, the next they're working class heroes who need their livlihoods protected.
I fondly recall the fight against London sewers lest it put the gong farmers out of work.
I fondly recall the fight against London sewers lest it put the gong farmers out of work.
Jeanette Moo
Active Member
It's the same for every plumber, electrician and any other profession that rely on getting to jobs. You thought it was bad getting one to come on time before - try now!!! If they come at all!!
I had a leaky radiator fixed - plumber had to push it back the next day as he just cant get to see the same number of people in a day. He said many are stopping their 'no job too small' attitude and focusing on bigger jobs only to stay alive (and he only came to see me as i've used him for 10+ years)
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
The way delivery companies work means pay systems are bottom of list of their priorities.
They will adapt but it will not be in interest of the drivers. Who are expendable.
Given the way the LTNs have been suddenly brought in delivery companies and drivers have not had time to plan ahead and adjust.
For example some drivers I know had been able to plan ahead and replace their old vehicle for ULEZ compliant one. As timetable for this was brought in.
(Not all as its not cheap)
Drivers I now are struggling anyway without having this to deal with. This is sudden change and looks to me no one is interested in what they think. I thought they were "key workers". Perhaps not.
What I hadn't realised is that LTNs / changes to bus lane times etc have been brought in across whole sections of London. And not just central London.
My chat a few days ago was to point out the one to blame is Boris and the Tories not Khan.
From my chats looks like large vans ( Lutons and long wheel base transits) still have a place. Electric versions are coming in but are to expensive for the average van driver.
Small van drivers have uncertain future. Given what is happening in City some delivery companies are investing in electric cargo bikes. So small van drivers might be out of a job. So tough luck for them. Bonus for delivery companies is that they can pay cargo bike riders less.
That is the dog eat dog world of work.
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Gramsci
Well-Known Member
I thought they were Key Workers keeping the country going during these difficult times.
you can see little Amazon hubs appearing in industrial estates everywhere for bike riders to do pick ups
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Yes they are doing it in the City. Looks like they are using pandemic to test it out. One load of workers are no longer needed to be replaced with different lot
I think Amazon are going to replace their transit drivers with these new massive electric cargo bikes.
Capitalism can be surprisingly adaptable. It does this with heavy dose of ruthlessness.
sleaterkinney
Well-Known Member
I’ve had to wait three weeks to get my boiler serviced as they are so busy, cos it’s that time of year. I get a slot that’s a whole day long, what is this showing up on time thing, has a builder etc ever actually done that ever?
teuchter
je suis teuchter
Look at it the other way around: if the streets were suddenly made entirely clear of congestion, so that delivery drivers could make twice as many deliveries per day as before, would the companies continue to pay them twice as much as before? No, because after a while it would settle back to whatever the minimum is that they can get away with paying the drivers - and that will be based on time, not number of deliveries. So, the same will happen if it turns out to be a long term effect that delivery rounds take longer: the pay will settle to a new regime where it's a bit more per delivery, but a delivery driver will on average be able to earn the same sort of amount per day.
I do recognise, like I said above, that this will mean a period of re-adjustment that the drivers will be at the sharp end of.
The other effect might be a tendency to use fewer, slightly larger vehicles, and yes maybe even cargo bikes in some locations. You allude to both of those effects yourself. And that might mean there are slightly fewer delivery drivers employed overall. That's not good for delivery drivers - naturally - but in the long term its the better for the city, isn't it? Fewer motorised vehicles on the road.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Thing is Im posting up what I see happening now On a personal level with people I know. And it does not look good.
teuchter
je suis teuchter
Sure.
But I wonder how things would have looked right now, if none of these road changes had been made? Do you think they would be much better?
I don't think it's outlandish to suggest that the bit of extra capacity that would have been available would simply have been filled up and there would still be congestion. And no extra space for those who want to try and cycle and walk.
Is there any evidence of things improving significantly in Wandsworth since they abandoned all their LTNs?
Jeanette Moo
Active Member
About a hundred videos of people showing before the LTN and after the LTN. Empty, free flowing roads with no congestion.
It's rich asking for evidence when none was collated before these things were put in
thebackrow
Considerably more Brixton.
105 pages and that's the funniest thing anyones posted on this thread yet.....congratulations
Google Maps currently showing congestion on both the main roads and the roads within the LTNs they ripped out. Look at all those orange and red sections on minor roads that should not have any through traffic.
Jeanette Moo
Active Member
They still have restrictions with regards to the A24 which is exactly what you are highlighting.
Still 100x better than it was. point still stands though............how can you tell it's better or worse than before because they didn't measure, they just threw in?
thebackrow
Considerably more Brixton.
Ok - so there are some banned turns and a cycleway that had parking in it off peak now has parking removed and wand protected cycle lane. Banned turns should in many case improve traffic flow (as right turns across traffic create delays). Heres a typical section of the A24 through Tooting. It was always a single lane in each direction which it still is now, except the blue paint now has some wands to keep drivers out of it.
The reports I've seen say that the main roads are just as congested as they were before and now the minor roads are full of traffic too (which they weren't during the few weeks of LTN).
now I know mine is just as anecdotal as yours but how are you evidencing your "100x better than it was", and how you know it wasn't measured - there will have been traffic counts for the major roads at the very least.
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Jeanette Moo
Active Member
All evidence is going to be anecdotal without measurement and they requested traffic counts for this reason. Wandsworth had a handful relating to 20mph limits and a road closure relating to earlsfield. Thats it.
I head that way twice a week at most and the difference is night and day. The fact the OneWandsworth group is quieter and was/is filled with then&now shots showing better roads is evidence in itself vs a google map picture.
I head that way twice a week at most and the difference is night and day. The fact the OneWandsworth group is quieter and was/is filled with then&now shots showing better roads is evidence in itself vs a google map picture.
Jeanette Moo
Active Member
Not just allegedly - someone posted a vid from inside an ambulance trying to get down the A24. Cars have few places to move out of the way. Emergency crews are even sharing the misery online. Hopefully anonymously.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
As Im on the roads all day and know a lot of people who work on the roads providing a service for other people thought Id post what I have been hearing from the horses mouth so to speak,
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