Good thing too. Glum people, coming here, stealing our leek porridge
Brexit or Bremain - Urban votes
- Thread starter DrRingDing
- Start date
DrRingDing
'anti-human wanker'
Any opinions on Osborne's 3 million figure out today?
I had never heard of leek porridge, but I could nip down there and steal some before Botham pulls up the drawbridge.Good thing too. Glum people, coming here, stealing our leek porridge
Then again, I do have some leeks waiting for me to do something with them.
I agree with you about that. I think the world needs to be a fairer place, that almost needs to be a revolution. It can't go on just a tiny few superrich having all the money and resources. In my view the anyway that's going to happen is more pain and misery and poverty until something happens and things change. I'm not looking forward to that journey, I suppose I'm happy with the status quo, at least as it was, in which the masses get just enough crumbs from the table of the rich, so life isn't too bad. I think vast numbers of population however it is brought about is can make things worse before it gets better.
Also it's so dependent on one's point of view, the ethics are not clear-cut. There are a lot of poorer countries in Europe, is it right for Britain to empty them of their young bright people? Same with taking the best nurses and doctors from around the world, particularly poorer countries. I suppose it allows distribution of wealth back to those countries or to the particular families of those that have come.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
More like corporal jonesI voted accidentally whilst scrolling down the screen on my phone, I am bereft, I feel like Owen Jones.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
No there isn't, in fact for the last 15 years controls have been progressively relaxed.
The single biggest reason for lack of schools capacity is the closure and selling off of school properties in the 1990s and 2000s, rather than merely mothballing them. Blame the Department for Education for THAT fuck-up, and the fact that land is mostly too expensive for new developments (our last new secondary school is built on top of an old waste-disposal yard).
In terms of natural reproduction, if you look at figures, you'll see that citizen birth rates are only climbing very slightly, with the larger issue being longer-surviving oldies - the increase in life expectancy.
You always come out with the same old anti-immigrant bollocks.
some might argue is it right that we inflict our old people on Europe. I thought old people were supposed to help bringing up grandkids not swanning off to Spain to play golf all day.
I take on board what you're saying and I sort of agree but the water is very muddy. And are there other solutions to the problems of an ageing population.
You said, I always come out with the same anti-immigration bollocks. To me that's an insult, I don't like being insulted. I don't know how to react to it. If I insult you back, am I not wrestling in mud.
I wish I could take you to court and challenge your accusation publicly and have it decided in a court of law whether I'm coming out with anti-immigration bollocks.
At least I would make a formal complaint about your accusation. Because I refute it.
The only option I got is to not spend much time on this forum. Is that really what you call a great victory for you?
I am used to giving people respect and getting in return, it makes the world a nice place.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
I must say that what i find most distasteful about arguments like this is the pretence that they're primarily concerned with potential damage done to countries poorer than here. We al know that it's not true that this is not what's driving these sort of anti-immigration arguments from these types - hence their absence from other struggles to the same claimed end, or even the intellectual acceptance of the ideas behind those campaigns. In fact we more often see outright rejection of and attacks on those ideas and campaigns instead.
andysays
Love and solidarity
If you don't like being accused of always coming out with the same anti-immigration bollocks, then the solution is simple and in your own hands - stop always coming out with the same anti-immigration bollocks.
And if you really want to refute it, try addressing the arguments people are responding to you with, rather than just whining about how insulted you feel.
So far I've seen nothing from you, on this thread or any others, which is deserving of respect...
I would hope that expressing opinions which are true to oneself would be enough to be treated as legitimate. Personally I think whining about how insulted I feel is better than me insulting anyone else back.
The real issue for me, is that I don't feel that the European Union has a legitimate mandate for what the policies that have been employed. Good people fair and true wish to remain in Europe and welcome EU immigration, other good people wish to leave the European Union. This vote is going to create the legitimacy one way or the other. Whatever the outcome I'll be happy and accept the result.
But what I want to know is there some other ideology which is greater than democracy which says unlimited immigration is a good thing? If so can you point me to wear that manifesto or philosophy is? I might be reading things wrong but to many pro-immigration seems to be a core ideology rather than simply a democratic choice for the country involved. It seems to be people are denounced if they wish to leave the European Union. They are mad, they are stupid, they are trolls, they've been brainwashed by the Daily Mail, the right wing Nazis, they support Hitler, they are fascists. What is going on with all this stuff.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
You have a history of coming out with unsubstantiated anti-immigrant bollocks. I have a history of challenging you about it.
All the pontification in the world by you, about courts of law and respect don't change that essential truth.
You say that you're used to giving and getting respect - I'd contend that you have no self-respect, if you actually believe any of what you wrote in the post I originally replied to.
SaskiaJayne
Rural Guerrilla
Could it be argued that the EU is a neolib construct & a vote out will bring about a socialist government more quickly?
gawkrodger
Well-Known Member
No, no, no, no, no. The sooner people move away from this rubbish the better.
'But I believe in unicorns. I'm being true to myself'
Opinions are legitimate when you back them up with evidence, not half-arsed claims and personal bigotries.
kebabking
Not a Girly Swot, but I like them....
yes, if you believe in Unicorns and Fairydust and don't pay attention to 'don't lick me!' signs on lumps of Aluminium.
the EU is a neo-liberal construct, however to believe that the electorate, having just voted in support of an essentially hyper-capitalist, nationalist and xenophobic polictical campaign to leave the EU will then turn around and support an anti-capitalist political campaign smacks of a degree of, err... naivety in terms of political thinking.
those who arue that leaving the EU would provide the space - and impetus - for the growth of a anti-capitalist movement also utterly fail to mention quite how much damage to what remains of the post-war concesus the inevitable hyper-capitalist governments elected on the back of EU withdrawl would do before their Glorious Peoples RevolutionTM got into full swing. is the NHS or state education having been abolished for 20 years a price worth paying for the chance of this revolution? 5 years? 15 years? 50 years? and what is the chance of this revolution - a certainty, or a probability, a possibility, or just exactly the same not-far-off-fuck-all that its always been?
so, to be clear, those pushing for 'out' because they want an anti-capitalist government are offering a reduced economy - less jobs - somewhere between several and many hyper-Capitalist governments in the 2020-2030-2040 period that will make Camerons Britain look like fucking Cuba, all for a chance - that they refuse to speculate on the likelyhood of - that at some point there will be a electorate wide backlash that brings an anti-capitalist government to power.
fucking great - when's the next series of The Apprentice on, i want to see these people flogging mobile phones...
Sea Star
have you ever explored your dark side?
I wouldn't be against coming out if it was handled properly but all the indications are that if this government are told to take us out they're going to do it to cause as much harm as they possibly can by doing it in two years. So I vote to stay in.
andysays
Love and solidarity
Perhaps you haven't been paying attention for the last 30+ years, but the post-war consensus is already well and truely gone, and the NHS and state education (to name but two) are already being abolished in favour of private finance having control of and making profit from services which used to be thought of as deserving of public ownership and control. All this has happened despite our membership of the EU, indeed it's been and continues to be the deliberate and relentless direction of travel across the EU as a whole.
Your suggestion that remaining in the EU can or will be in the least bit relevant to protecting ordinary people from the hyper-capitalism we're already experiencing suggests that it's you who's living in a fantasy world of unicorns and fairy dust.
No one has said that Britain leaving will automatically bring what you refer to disparagingly as the "Glorious Peoples RevolutionTM", rather that it will open up opportunities for labour to exert some measure of power over a British state in disary. Those opportunities will still need to be taken up and fought for, but while we remain locked into the explicitly neo-liberal anti-social democratic prison of the EU, we don't even have those.
I agree with you entirely. Things are terrible now with the demolition of the health service and other public institutions but all that is needed is for British citizens to vote for good politicians, Ones that are committed to making the world a fairer place. It may be a far-off dream but it's doable.
There is talk of a bonfire of workers rights if Britain leaves EU, that might be true but if we are out of Europe we have true power to decide the workers rights that we want for our country. At some point someone is going to say, let's have a fairer society,and have better workers rights, not just the superrich and those having to make do with crumbs from the table.
This is off topic but with the mass Syrian /North African migrations into Europe it does rather show the unstoppable power of human numbers. I'm not talking about the rights and wrongs of that, but the power is undeniable.
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
I think (or hope) that a rump Englandandwales would find itself quite a different place and there'd be a gap for a new political landscape of one stripe or another.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Whilst scotland is stuck with the neo-liberal eu.
SaskiaJayne
Rural Guerrilla
Yes this is the sort of lines I have been thinking along. Apart from the very wealthy minority I suppose the haves & have nots in society could be defined as the older home owners & the younger home renters who have no chance of owning which in this society is really the only way of having a home that you know you can be secure in for the rest of your life if thats what you want. I would have thought that the balance will eventually tip as the old die off & the young get older but still cannot afford to buy but it would be nice to speed up the process.
The housing market owning or rented will continue to be not fit for purpose until enough voters get pissed off enough to vote in a socialist government who will start a large programe of council house building. It's difficult to see how the Tory party can reunify short term with the bitter divisions within the party at the moment so it seems a good time for a more socialist Labour to seize the initiative. Obviously after the referendum whatever the result we will still have a Tory majority government probably for their full term but possibly 90s history might repeat except Labour could get their act together as socialist Labour rather than nu Labour?
SaskiaJayne
Rural Guerrilla
It does not really matter what they call themselves as long as they get the politics right.
andysays
Love and solidarity
Just to be clear, my reference to labour (lower case) meant labour opposed to capital, not the Labour party.
The absolute most we can expect from the latter is mild social democracy, and with neo-liberalism/hyper-capitalism/whatever you wanna call it rampant worldwide, social democracy in one country isn't much of an option either, IMO
krink
I'll do it this afternoon
i work on the elections and you can. all you have to do is mark your vote clearly enough so the arbitrator is convinced it was your vote. anything else on the slip is irrelevant. people scribble on them to get their pens going, people doodle, draw and write comments, kids crayon on them etc etc but if the x in the box is beyond doubt it gets counted.
*edit though i take your point about not 'sticking it to the man' if it is also a vote. you'll see what i'm on about soon enough, I always draw a nice picture on my postal vote slip. i'm not trying to make any political point by doing so, it's to entertain my fellow elections staff. it's great when we get an odd one
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