Breadmaking

[mrs quoad]

Bannetons, general tip: wobble before tipping out. Wobble until all sides are very clearly separated from their moorings. Even if this feels very vigorous. First wobble side to side, then do a test wobble up and down (once the side to side feels clean), just to check that it will fully separate when it’s inverted.

Idk if a wobble recommendation is dispensed with bannetons these days. (It wasn’t with mine.) It’s probably been the most valuable single take-home from my baking course

 

[mrs quoad]

So was looking on a forum about bread (yes I know) I saw that one person suggested adding extra gluten to wholemeal and rye flours, so as to get the flavours, but without such a dense loaf, which I thought was an interesting idea. However given that I've not read about it anywhere else, I'm slightly skeptical. That said it's cheap enough and I'm wondering if worth an experiment to see if I can get a light loaf that's made from rye and wholemeal.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Buy-Whole-Foods-Online-Gluten/dp/B007CX0ZSK

I find this interesting.

Two or four years back, I used to argue endlessly with a Czech friend about how the fuck our favourite baker made his rye loaves (and his spelt, emeet, einkorn, blah) so absurdly light. He reckoned it was added gluten; I reckoned “bollocks it’s rye (&c.)”. He was getting results that shat ours out, then pissed all over them. In terms of rise, lightness, crumb, blah.

Turned out (on taking his course) that many of his fucking tremendous interesting breads were 70% strong white, with emmer, einkorn, etc providing the flavour whilst the strong white provided the structure.

My Czech friend tried buying gluten; but didn’t get many publishable results. I’ve continued to find the limits / potential effects of gluten interesting.

But complicated.

Eg... many kinds of flours are rated by their mineral content, after incineration. That’s what Type 55 is - 55g of ash remaining (I've blates got the decimal wrong) of ash remaining, after 10kg of flour is burnt. (That can’t be right?!)

I can’t claim to understand how this scales, from low end to top end of residue. Or why it’s so important.

Yet... this measurement appears to define pretty much every kind of flour, and what can be done with it, in a properly interesting way that’s only loosely related to protein. Those scales appear to apply / be used internationally.

I’m not at all sure that I believe that adding gluten to a ridiculously high numbers flour (such as rye) is a complete solution. It looks to me like a botch job, based on an assumption that only one measure is key.

(Yet eg low protein spelt and low protein rye are polar opposites, wrt behaviour).

So. Yeah.

I’d be genuinely interested in knowing how this works out. I’d be even more interested in why.

Arbitrary link: What are Flour Types T45, T55, T65, T150, Type 0 or Type 00, Magic Enzy Flour, Rye Flour T1150, Pizza Flour?p

Longer & more international link: Understanding flour types – Weekend Bakery

 

[UnderOpenSky]

Bannetons, general tip: wobble before tipping out. Wobble until all sides are very clearly separated from their moorings. Even if this feels very vigorous. First wobble side to side, then do a test wobble up and down (once the side to side feels clean), just to check that it will fully separate when it’s inverted.

Idk if a wobble recommendation is dispensed with bannetons these days. (It wasn’t with mine.) It’s probably been the most valuable single take-home from my baking course

Will certainly make sure I do that. Not had disaster yet, but it's still apprehension time when it comes to turning them out.

Got a small batch of dough on tonight for flat breads of some kind or pizza and playing with not using a mixer, but the slap and fold method. Seems quite simple and useful for small batches. Just working out the best method to add salt.

 

[mrs quoad]

Will certainly make sure I do that. Not had disaster yet, but it's still apprehension time when it comes to turning them out.

Got a small batch of dough on tonight for flat breads of some kind or pizza and playing with not using a mixer, but the slap and fold method. Seems quite simple and useful for small batches. Just working out the best method to add salt.

Added recommendation: sprinkle semolina over the future bottom (well, current visible top) of the dough before upending it over a peel. After the wobbling (or semolina will go everywhere, and coat your toes for weeks).

Also coat the peel with a decent layer of semolina before dough is upended.

Together, ^^^ those greatly reduce the chance of loaf drag.

 

[UnderOpenSky]

I find this interesting.

Two or four years back, I used to argue endlessly with a Czech friend about how the fuck our favourite baker made his rye loaves (and his spelt, emeet, einkorn, blah) so absurdly light. He reckoned it was added gluten; I reckoned “bollocks it’s rye (&c.)”. He was getting results that shat ours out, then pissed all over them. In terms of rise, lightness, crumb, blah.

Turned out (on taking his course) that many of his fucking tremendous interesting breads were 70% strong white, with emmer, einkorn, etc providing the flavour whilst the strong white provided the structure.

My Czech friend tried buying gluten; but didn’t get many publishable results. I’ve continued to find the limits / potential effects of gluten interesting.

But complicated.

Eg... many kinds of flours are rated by their mineral content, after incineration. That’s what Type 55 is - 55g of ash remaining (I've blates got the decimal wrong) of ash remaining, after 10kg of flour is burnt. (That can’t be right?!)

I can’t claim to understand how this scales, from low end to top end of residue. Or why it’s so important.

Yet... this measurement appears to define pretty much every kind of flour, and what can be done with it, in a properly interesting way that’s only loosely related to protein. Those scales appear to apply / be used internationally.

I’m not at all sure that I believe that adding gluten to a ridiculously high numbers flour (such as rye) is a complete solution. It looks to me like a botch job, based on an assumption that only one measure is key.

(Yet eg low protein spelt and low protein rye are polar opposites, wrt behaviour).

So. Yeah.

I’d be genuinely interested in knowing how this works out. I’d be even more interested in why.

Arbitrary link: What are Flour Types T45, T55, T65, T150, Type 0 or Type 00, Magic Enzy Flour, Rye Flour T1150, Pizza Flour?p

Longer & more international link: Understanding flour types – Weekend Bakery

That you suggest it's complicated makes me think that there is probably a reason that it's not more widely used. It's also interesting what you say about your favourite baker. When I did play with using a lot of Rye and found the dough a nightmare to work with. However a loaf tin is very forgiving in terms of what you can bake. I now find just 5 to 10% can give a nice flavour, without changing the loaf to much.I must confess the ash thing is new to me, hopefully in time it will start to make more sense in terms of my baking.

Think your on to a winner selling your loaves at any rate. I've got time at the moment, which I rarely have. Trouble is, two of us can only eat so much bread. Did find an interesting suggestion earlier though about basically making a starter the night before using commercial yeast. Pointless if your baking the whole time, but useful for me who doesn't always have time to bring a starter back to life after being away.

 

[UnderOpenSky]

Added recommendation: sprinkle semolina over the future bottom (well, current visible top) of the dough before upending it over a peel. After the wobbling (or semolina will go everywhere, and coat your toes for weeks).

Also coat the peel with a decent layer of semolina before dough is upended.

Together, ^^^ those greatly reduce the chance of loaf drag.

Nice. I'd been using Rye flour for this, but take it semolina is a finer powder? Seen rice flour also suggested for this.

 

[mrs quoad]

Nice. I'd been using Rye flour for this, but take it semolina is a finer powder? Seen rice flour also suggested for this.

Yes. It’s chunkier, grittier, and more free flowing.

It both crisps up bottoms nicely, and... shifts more smoothly? Into ovens. Also doesn’t burn so easily (because chunkier).

Would recommend Waitrose. Should you ever pass by one. They have a superfine semolina that, tbh, can also be added to normal loaves to whack up the gluten content. Sburies, Tesco &c have a grittier version that works well, but doesn’t turn crisp so cleanly, and can’t really be added to bread. Not unless you want nuggets of semolina, at least.

 

[pug]

So was looking on a forum about bread (yes I know) I saw that one person suggested adding extra gluten to wholemeal and rye flours, so as to get the flavours, but without such a dense loaf, which I thought was an interesting idea. However given that I've not read about it anywhere else, I'm slightly skeptical. That said it's cheap enough and I'm wondering if worth an experiment to see if I can get a light loaf that's made from rye and wholemeal.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Buy-Whole-Foods-Online-Gluten/dp/B007CX0ZSK

I find this interesting.

Two or four years back, I used to argue endlessly with a Czech friend about how the fuck our favourite baker made his rye loaves (and his spelt, emeet, einkorn, blah) so absurdly light. He reckoned it was added gluten; I reckoned “bollocks it’s rye (&c.)”. He was getting results that shat ours out, then pissed all over them. In terms of rise, lightness, crumb, blah.

Turned out (on taking his course) that many of his fucking tremendous interesting breads were 70% strong white, with emmer, einkorn, etc providing the flavour whilst the strong white provided the structure.

My Czech friend tried buying gluten; but didn’t get many publishable results. I’ve continued to find the limits / potential effects of gluten interesting.

But complicated.

Eg... many kinds of flours are rated by their mineral content, after incineration. That’s what Type 55 is - 55g of ash remaining (I've blates got the decimal wrong) of ash remaining, after 10kg of flour is burnt. (That can’t be right?!)

I can’t claim to understand how this scales, from low end to top end of residue. Or why it’s so important.

Yet... this measurement appears to define pretty much every kind of flour, and what can be done with it, in a properly interesting way that’s only loosely related to protein. Those scales appear to apply / be used internationally.

I’m not at all sure that I believe that adding gluten to a ridiculously high numbers flour (such as rye) is a complete solution. It looks to me like a botch job, based on an assumption that only one measure is key.

(Yet eg low protein spelt and low protein rye are polar opposites, wrt behaviour).

So. Yeah.

I’d be genuinely interested in knowing how this works out. I’d be even more interested in why.

Arbitrary link: What are Flour Types T45, T55, T65, T150, Type 0 or Type 00, Magic Enzy Flour, Rye Flour T1150, Pizza Flour?p

Longer & more international link: Understanding flour types – Weekend Bakery

I've been making really nice rye using 500g strong white, 150g strong wholemeal, 350g rye / 690g water, 20g salt, 20+g seeds. I use instant yeast and cold water, give it the first kneading then fold every hour for four hours, I use water on my hands to combat stickyness keeping it in the bowl for folding, I keep it coolish until proofing and don't let it rise too much between foldings. It needs properly proofing. Adding a couple of tbs aof sourdough starter as well as yeast has good effect.

I was given Secrets of a Jewish Baker for Xmas... would say more but no time

 

[UnderOpenSky]

Sounds good pug.

The dough I was playing with last night using the slap and fold method I threw in the fridge with the hope of it developing more flavour and using for some kind of flatbread today. Got it out this afternoon and it had gone super sticky and wouldn't respond to be folded again. Have I some how managed to kill of to much of gluten? Thrown it in a bread tin so it's not wasted, but curious about what went wrong. If I'm doing this again, should it go straight in the fridge after mixing for it's bulk ferment?

 

[keithy]

Experimenting today

 

[UnderOpenSky]

Nice. What is it?

 

[keithy]

Spinach and feta. No fancy flours for me though just white for this.

 

[UnderOpenSky]

My quest for making a pretty loaf continues. Except they really have a mind of their own after going in the oven.

Also I've only recently realised how nice croutons can be. I've always thought of them as boring dry little cubes on top of soup, but freshly made with lots of olive oil and salt and pepper and they are lush.

 

[UnderOpenSky]

I've seen reference to Peter Reinhart books a fair bit when reading stuff on the net, so thought I'd look on Amazon. Except they are bloody expensive, so I found torrents of them on a private site I'm a member of. If anyone wants a zip of them, drop me a PM.

 

[UnderOpenSky]

Broke another oven thermometer.

 

[keithy]

You're all to scientific for me! I am an artistic instinctive baker

 

[keithy]

I've been trying to see how practical it is to bake in the evening after work. Seems ok but less lee way for making sure the dough proves enough etc. Didn't pay much attention yesterday and ended up with a tasty edible but not so pretty boule. Orh well! Packed lunch sandwiches don't need to be too pretty.

 

[UnderOpenSky]

I've been trying to see how practical it is to bake in the evening after work. Seems ok but less lee way for making sure the dough proves enough etc. Didn't pay much attention yesterday and ended up with a tasty edible but not so pretty boule. Orh well! Packed lunch sandwiches don't need to be too pretty.

Could you stick it in the fridge for 24 hours to prove so you bake it the following evening? I've not done it that long yet, but have gone from evening to following lunchtime and it develops a bit more flavour. You do need to let it warm up though before baking.

 

[UnderOpenSky]

I did my largest loaf to date in the basket, 875g of flour. Still got a mind of its own when it expands though.

 

[keithy]

Could you stick it in the fridge for 24 hours to prove so you bake it the following evening? I've not done it that long yet, but have gone from evening to following lunchtime and it develops a bit more flavour. You do need to let it warm up though before baking.

Yeah that might be my next experiment. Tried freezing after the shaping and that worked ok but not greeeeat.

 

[keithy]

I did my largest loaf to date in the basket, 875g of flour. Still got a mind of its own when it expands though.


View attachment 124899

The basket should be keeping it in shape. Did the dough double and get loads of air in the first rise? It looks like mine looked last night when I didnt give it long enough to rise!

 

[mrs quoad]

Yeah that might be my next experiment. Tried freezing after the shaping and that worked ok but not greeeeat.

I usually give it overnight, fwiw. Ten-ish until 7-ish.

I strongly suspect 24 hours would be too long.

 

[RubyToogood]

I've been trying to see how practical it is to bake in the evening after work. Seems ok but less lee way for making sure the dough proves enough etc. Didn't pay much attention yesterday and ended up with a tasty edible but not so pretty boule. Orh well! Packed lunch sandwiches don't need to be too pretty.

The long prove sourdough recipe works quite well for this. I put a batch on before I go to bed, then it's ready to be folded and go in the basket when I get home the next day, and gets baked after dinner.

 

[UnderOpenSky]

Not unhappy with this one. Certainly a bit neater. Which is just as well as the last one was a disaster. Tried putting milk in it and didn't end well.

 

[gentlegreen]

I bought some vitamin C powder for my gardening, but I have masses left over. (apparently 1 tsp in the equivalent of a bathful of water deals with a lot of the chlorine).

Is there any mileage in adding some to my bread - in addition to that which is already included with the yeast ?

 

[mrs quoad]

Erm.

I’ve got flu atm, and something went batshit in my bread making head last night.

This is a chilli, cheese, date and cumin arse loaf. There’s interesting flour in there, but idk what bc I’m spannered with disease related stupid.

I have no fucking idea what it tastes of, bc my tastebuds are on holiday. The chilli is burning its way through tho, and other people ate it without concern until I began explaining what dog cheese is. (Its cheese I bought for the dog. From t’coop. Nowt wrong with it. You’d think. Unless you’re some kind of pretentious senior lecturer who shops at Waitrose, apparently.)

 

[mrs quoad]

This morning's loaf is chilli, Cathedral City extra mature, fennel, cumin, date, and apricot.

It's really fucking weird.

I'm not at all sure whether or not I like it.

 

[UnderOpenSky]

This morning's loaf is chilli, Cathedral City extra mature, fennel, cumin, date, and apricot.

It's really fucking weird.

I'm not at all sure whether or not I like it.

It sounds pretty weird to be fair. Fair play for trying these things though.

 

[Artaxerxes]

A lot more free time lately so made baguettes from a Paul Hollywood recipe last couple of weeks.

They came out more like a soft ciabatta, especially first weeks, but are still very tasty.

 

[mrs quoad]

With the benefit of hindsight, I wish I’d substituted 30% of the water for mustard.



There’re a few mandolined red chillies in there, too. (Well. Three.)