blokes, would you be willing to accept restrictions on your behaviour...

[keybored]

For those of us who work with children, it has worrying implications. Last week, I felt uncomfortable about hugging back children who were upset at me leaving my job. There is nothing wrong with comforting an upset child, but men have to be circumspect about doing so, at the child's expense. That surely isn't fair?

I'm playing Devil's Advocate. Of course there's nothing wrong with that and feeling unnecessary guilt about interactions with kids isn't going to stop actual child molesters (any more than existing laws do).

 

[Wilf]

For those of us who work with children, it has worrying implications. Last week, I felt uncomfortable about hugging back children who were upset at me leaving my job. There is nothing wrong with comforting an upset child, but men have to be circumspect about doing so, at the child's expense. That surely isn't fair?

Well yes, certainly, but it's all a necessary, if occasionally hysterical, corrective after decades of rapey priests, djs, politicians etc. There will be all kinds of injustices, departures from plain common sense and the proper relationship between adults and kids will suffer as you say. Just have to hope when society gets it's head screwed on about the exploitation of kids (and all the exercises of power that entails), something more relaxed and suitable in terms of normal social contact will emerge.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

For those of us who work with children, it has worrying implications. Last week, I felt uncomfortable about hugging back children who were upset at me leaving my job. There is nothing wrong with comforting an upset child, but men have to be circumspect about doing so, at the child's expense. That surely isn't fair?

No, it's not. The way men are being made to feel uneasy about even touching children is very bad for society. It's very bad for the kids.

I was playing with my girlfriend's niece and nephew once in a 'spoons play area. I picked them up and swung them around. Then I turned back and saw a whole line of the kids they had been playing with who also wanted to be picked up and swung around. I did it, but as I did it, I did wonder about how it might look. I then stopped at one swing each for the kids. It's not nice or healthy to feel like that. This was about 10 years ago. I reckon it's probably got quite a bit worse than that now.

 

[keybored]

No, it's not. fwiw when it comes to children you know, I do think it's very different, and that the way men are being made to feel uneasy about even touching children is very bad for society. It's very bad for the kids.

I think it's not great for kids to live in a world where every unknown adult (male or female) is automatically a threat. I'd say most of the time they aren't, and the ones that are are going to be a threat somehow anyway.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I think it's not great for kids to live in a world where every unknown adult (male or female) is automatically a threat.

I agree. There's got to be a balance somewhere.

This stuff isn't new of course. Jimmy Savile of all people made a video called Stranger Danger back in the 70s.

 

[keybored]

/

 

[keybored]

I agree. There's got to be a balance somewhere.

This stuff isn't new of course. Jimmy Savile of all people made a video called Stranger Danger back in the 70s.

He was no stranger to his victims.

Boring stuff, I was a paper boy when I was 13-15 and befriended the local eccentric old guy/(fucking nutcase nonce) somehow. I did feel uncomfortable at first because of the rumours. All he wanted to do was tell me how everything was shit and the popo were bad and I should know Law and read me stuff from "You and Your Rights".

He turned out to be an intense, slightly nutty and very wise old man, who was in no way a threat. Sexually, at least.

I can see myself going that way, and it scares me a bit.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Yep, the scope for victimising eccentric people is huge.

 

[keybored]

demonising*? They can't be victims.

I'm not picking on your turn-of-phrase but until they've been murdered (see Bijan Ebrahimi)...

 

[free spirit]

IMO one of the worst things I've seen happen in my lifetime is the extent to which complete paranoia over the intentions of anyone they don't already know intimately has destroyed a huge amount of perfectly normal social interaction, and essentially helped to destroy the cohesion of society / communities.

Lonely old folk can't talk to their neighbours kids for fear of being labelled a dirty old man, so they end up spending their final years alone.

Kids end up growing up unfit, obese and utterly clueless about life due to their parents abject paranoia about the supposed dangers involved in letting their kids play out, ignoring the virtual certainty of poor health and an early death that awaits their obese kids who've grown up without any life skills or understanding of risk themselves.

Kids grow up sensing that paranoia and knowing that it's somehow wrong to make eye contact with, smile at or god forbid, actually talk to someone they don't already know, and carry that into their adult lives.

Parents can't go out because they can't afford to pay for a babysitter / don't trust anyone to look after their kids.... when I was a kid my parents barely ever paid anyone, they were members of a babysitting circle where totally none CRB checked other parents would swap baby sitting duties with each other for free

Those without money feel they can't hitch anymore, so simply don't end up going anywhere, don't get to go see the world, go festivalling without a bean to their name, go join a travellers convoy etc etc

And inevitably society and communities simply stop functioning, and all our lives are demonstrably poorer as a result.

All because of a relatively minute actual risk of child abduction by a stranger - a risk against which the best defence is actually for others in the community to know you, know your child, and be prepared to intervene themselves if they witness your child being carried off by a stranger / wandering off towards danger.

It's like we're allowing Thatchers vision of 'no such thing as society' to become reality all because we're so shit scared to actually notice that 99.99% of people are actually decent human beings, or at least manage to hold in check their cuntishness for the sake of appearances, and that we actually make all of our lives poorer by avoiding interacting with each other.

For reference, the current likelihood of any child being subject to an attempted abduction by a stranger in the UK before they make it to 18 is 0.0019% or 2 out of 100,000, and most of those aren't successful.

ps I have co-ordinated a successful security response to an actual child abduction attempt, so I'm not denying that it can and does happen, just that society has allowed this relatively tiny risk to override everything else, and largely destroy all the good that comes from communities who get to know each other and look out for each other and each others kids

 

[8ball]

For those of us who work with children, it has worrying implications. Last week, I felt uncomfortable about hugging back children who were upset at me leaving my job. There is nothing wrong with comforting an upset child, but men have to be circumspect about doing so, at the child's expense. That surely isn't fair?

I think teachers of both sexes have the same thing nowadays, from what a teacher friend tells me.

Yes, I'm aware I have just done a 'what about the womenz?'...

 

[sim667]

I think teachers of both sexes have the same thing nowadays, from what a teacher friend tells me.

Yes, I'm aware I have just done a 'what about the womenz?'...

I just avoid making any physical contact with students unless is accidental.

I had one last year who thought it was funny to be overly flirty with me, it was quite funny at times, but there were some times someone had to say something to her (once after she slapped my arse I remember), one time she was spoken to by a female colleague, and the other time a mature female student who was the same age as me and well respected in the group did it..... But even then I was worried about how it would refelct on me, even though it was very obvious I had done nothing to encourage it.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

demonising*? They can't be victims.

I'm not picking on your turn-of-phrase but until they've been murdered (see Bijan Ebrahimi)...

Yeah, I meant demonising.

 

[sim667]

To be fair any test determining whether you should be allowed access to children is just going to be like the bit in brass eye when the presenter takes offence that the paedophile doesn't fancy his son.

- "Are you sexually attracted to this child?"

- "No"

- "Excellent, you've passed with flying colours"

The only thing that protects children (particularly) from people in authorative positions is criminal history records, the DBS and character statements..... thats all that anyone can ever do except educating kids (responsibly).

edit: missed word out

 

[Orang Utan]

I think you missed some words out of that sim667
See me after class! E for clarity.

 

[sim667]

I think you missed some words out of that sim667
See me after class! E for clarity.

You're right. Will edit

 

[Orang Utan]

I think you may have imagined part of that scene too. I don't remember that quote.

 

[sim667]

I think you may have imagined part of that scene too. I don't remember that quote.

I wasn't meaning to quote it, but just refer to the ridiculousness of it.....

It's a great scene though

 

[Quartz]

IMO one of the worst things I've seen happen in my lifetime is the extent to which complete paranoia over the intentions of anyone they don't already know intimately has destroyed a huge amount of perfectly normal social interaction, and essentially helped to destroy the cohesion of society / communities.

Spot on.

 

[frogwoman]

Surely the majority of rape etc happens in the home and among friends, relationships and aquaintances?

 

[frogwoman]

Surely a better way to sort the problem would be to educate people about healthy relationships?

It's a bit of a myth to say that most rape occurs by strangers in the middle of the night, could potentially do more harm than good IMO.

 

[frogwoman]

I think teachers of both sexes have the same thing nowadays, from what a teacher friend tells me.

Yes, I'm aware I have just done a 'what about the womenz?'...

Yep, I think it's true.

I have a lot to say about this, I sometimes think we need a 'fourth wave' of feminism because of the way that the situation has developed, I think that as well as the sexism that's always been there some women are increasingly subjected to the same pressures men are (and vice versa) I sometimes think the effect of patriarchy are to a certain extent becoming generalised.

It was the case of Joanna Dennehy and a few other female serial killers who killed in the same way male do and in similar circumstances and motivations, that started me thinking about this.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Surely a better way to sort the problem would be to educate people about healthy relationships?

It's a bit of a myth to say that most rape occurs by strangers in the middle of the night, could potentially do more harm than good IMO.

Well, we're all more likely to be attacked during the day than at night, and men are more likely to be attacked in the street than women. Hard to overcome fears based on a feeling that there are people out there who are stronger than you or that you are more vulnerable because you can't see what is around you very well.
But yes, none of this discussion really touches on the main issues surrounding abuse.

 

[frogwoman]

To be honest I am feeling quite anxious about all this at the moment? Its worrying me that society seems to be going backwards in regards to sexism .

 

[Miss Caphat]

No, it's not. The way men are being made to feel uneasy about even touching children is very bad for society. It's very bad for the kids.

I was playing with my girlfriend's niece and nephew once in a 'spoons play area. I picked them up and swung them around. Then I turned back and saw a whole line of the kids they had been playing with who also wanted to be picked up and swung around. I did it, but as I did it, I did wonder about how it might look. I then stopped at one swing each for the kids. It's not nice or healthy to feel like that. This was about 10 years ago. I reckon it's probably got quite a bit worse than that now.

Although, I think I would feel the same way about it as a woman. and frankly, I don't think swinging random kids around and things like that are such a good idea in the first place.
I think it's good that people are starting to be more aware of children as individuals with rights, whose personal space, bodies, and minds should be respected.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Yep, I think it's true.

I have a lot to say about this, I sometimes think we need a 'fourth wave' of feminism because of the way that the situation has developed, I think that as well as the sexism that's always been there some women are increasingly subjected to the same pressures men are (and vice versa) I sometimes think the effect of patriarchy are to a certain extent becoming generalised.

It was the case of Joanna Dennehy and a few other female serial killers who killed in the same way male do and in similar circumstances and motivations, that started me thinking about this.

I think some interesting evidence is coming to light about this kind of thing. There have been many elaborate theories put forward as to why women live longer than men in most societies around the world. But possibly the simplest and most persuasive is that it's really just due to the kinds of stresses you're put under through your life. The country with the highest female life expectancy is Japan, where women still generally live a life that is subordinated in some ways to the power of men. The highest male life expectancy is Iceland, where men live almost as long as women, and which is one of the most equal countries between the genders there is. Paradoxically, one of the effects of patriarchy may be that it leads more men to die from stress-related behaviours.

This is not to say that a woman's life in a patriarchal place like Japan is not stressful, but they are different kinds of stress - the stress of the threat of failure is not quite the same.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Although, I think I would feel the same way about it as a woman. and frankly, I don't think swinging random kids around and things like that are such a good idea in the first place.
I think it's good that people are starting to be more aware of children as individuals with rights, whose personal space, bodies, and minds should be respected.

Er, the kids asked me to do it. I did what I thought was a compromise, which was to give each one one go. It wasn't wild swinging, tbf. But ok, maybe I got that wrong. I don't know.

tbh I don't quite see how your first sentence fits with your second.

 

[Miss Caphat]

Er, the kids asked me to do it. I did what I thought was a compromise, which was to give each one one go. It wasn't wild swinging, tbf. But ok, maybe I got that wrong. I don't know.

tbh I don't quite see how your first sentence fits with your second.

First of all, let me just say I've been working with kids for years, and have had to modify my own behavior irt touching and being physical with kids at times too.
I'm in no way saying you're an out of control maniac with no regard for kids' safety, just that I see nothing wrong with (in general) having to keep our hands off other kids who aren't in our care.

It takes some getting used to, but in the end I think it's better this way for the most part.
I think we used to have this attitude where kids were almost public property, and any stranger could pick them up, pinch their cheeks, sit them on their laps, etc. I think this was wrong because it often makes kids feel uncomfortable to be handled like this, even if they don't show it, and it also makes for blurry boundaries.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I think we used to have this attitude where kids were almost public property, and any stranger could pick them up, pinch their cheeks, sit them on their laps, etc. I think this was wrong because it often makes kids feel uncomfortable to be handled like this, even if they don't show it, and it also makes for blurry boundaries.

Maybe. My (rather limited experience) is that younger kids at least tend to be far more tactile and huggy than your average adult.

To be clear, though, in this particular case, it was the kids going 'my go!' at me after I'd done it with the two kids who were in my care at the time, and in a way that I hadn't expected at all.

tbh I'm not sure what I think about this. I think we're in danger of bringing up a generation of emotionally stunted children. Most of us (not all, of course) respond well to regular physical contact with others. Being hugged is a nice thing for most people most of the time. And even when it isn't nice, I'm not sure it's that damaging. I still remember being kissed by my very old granny when I was very little and going 'yuck', but I really don't think it damaged me.

I'm quite confused by a lot of this, tbh, which means that I err on the side of caution, which is not necessarily the best thing to do. And I reckon there's a lot like me in this regard.

 

[Orang Utan]

A bad man in the park:

This sort of thing must be stamped out.