blokes, would you be willing to accept restrictions on your behaviour...

[stethoscope]

Ah, return of the 'gynocentric paradigm'.

Off you fuck, falcon.

 

[8ball]

I don't think there's any point engaging, really. Just get rid.

It seemed like it might be a 'way in' to some extent, in that it had some numbers attached.
Quantifying 'degree of feminism' wasn't there, but I'd be interested to see where that came from anyway, or whether it is simply a garbling of a set of measures of gender inequalities.

 

[toggle]

whilst that t shirt is stupid Falcon there are many many more "funny" ones that denigrate and degrade women for the lols

plus that kind of funny isn't anything I recognise as feminist.

the common 'anti men' thing is the on where he's too stupid to work the washing machine. so lets laugh at the bloke who can't do his own laundry.

the end result is exactly the same as the 1950's happy housewife in that she gets to do it all.

 

[killer b]

It seemed like it might be a 'way in' to some extent, in that it had some numbers attached.
Quantifying 'degree of feminism' wasn't there, but I'd be interested to see where that came from anyway, or whether it is simply a garbling of a set of measures of gender inequalities.

That isn't the post of a thinking, logical being. There is no 'way in'. You might as well attempt to persuade a brick.

 

[emanymton]

plus that kind of funny isn't anything I recognise as feminist.

the common 'anti men' thing is the on where he's too stupid to work the washing machine. so lets laugh at the bloke who can't do his own laundry.

the end result is exactly the same as the 1950's happy housewife in that she gets to do it all.

I have the same issue with the whole women are better at multi-tasking thing. What it really means is women are naturally better at cooking cleaning and looking after the kids while the poor inadequate man just sits and watches TV.

 

[frogwoman]

plus that kind of funny isn't anything I recognise as feminist.

the common 'anti men' thing is the on where he's too stupid to work the washing machine. so lets laugh at the bloke who can't do his own laundry.

the end result is exactly the same as the 1950's happy housewife in that she gets to do it all.

I've been doing some research into pickup artists for an article and I have discovered there's a subculture of female pickup artists that seem just as minipulative as the male kind (and actually worked with Neil Strauss). Based on the same bullshit psychology, misandristic/misogynistic stereotypes about 'what he really wants', all sorts of insultingly bizarre shit.

 

[Orang Utan]

I've been doing some research into pickup artists for an article and I have discovered there's a subculture of female pickup artists that seem just as minipulative as the male kind (and actually worked with Neil Strauss). Based on the same bullshit psychology, misandristic/misogynistic stereotypes about 'what he really wants', all sorts of insultingly bizarre shit.

I remember this ridiculous book called The Rules.
There was also those books which pitted men and women against each other in an unending battle of mutual of incomprehension - such as Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus.

 

[ViolentPanda]

To my mind, the greatest evidence of that stress, and the most remarkable counterfactual evidence of a general feminist assertion of a society which inherently benefits males, are suicide rates. In almost every society, men find living so unpleasant that they kill themselves in multiples of the female rate on a per-capita basis (reference).


This is not easy to reconcile with the simplistic (and political) assertion that society systematically favours the interests of males.

Because, of course, high male suicide rates have nothing to do with the competitiveness that patriarchy sets up among males.

Try harder, Jew-hater.

A typical feminist defence of that core hypothesis is therefore the auxiliary hypothesis that it is the patriarchal society itself which makes men unhappy too (and women act violently). High male suicide rate, and female violence, are evidence that the feminist programme is not yet complete. Hmmm. Which makes even more remarkable the apparent correlation between the degree of elevation of the male adolescent suicide rate and the degree of feminism of the society in which he lives. For example, the adolescent male suicide rate in the UK was 6.5 deaths per 100,000 (against 1.8 female deaths). In Norway - a deeply feminist society - the equivalent is 15.3 deaths per 100,000.

And no wonder. Maleness is the new original sin.

Did you think that up yourself, or did you cull it from one of the MRA sites you visit?

"Boys are stupid - throw rocks at them" is a funny tee-shirt.

It's a play on how children think, you intellectual vacuum.

When they grow up, boys are nine times more likely to be imprisoned than girls for the same crime (with all of the socio-economic impairment that follows). He's immersed in a movie world in which boys are stupid, or violent, or both. He's immersed in an advertising world in which he's constantly rescued from his stupidity by his wise girlfriend (clever advertisers know very well who holds discretionary purchasing power in the household). He'll die sooner through occupational illness, or increasingly through state sponsored military violence, all the while apologising for the male characteristics that qualified him for those roles in the first place. He'll grow up in a paradigm in which discussions based on the premise that women and children are apparently safe only to the extent that the state constantly intervenes to prevent inherently violent men from acting on their uncontrollable impulses aren't even questionable.

Oh boy.

Oh boy indeed. You're not only an anti-Semite, but seemingly wish to shift the blame for your own multitudinous inadequacies onto women.

 

[ViolentPanda]

That means you're a cultural marxist.

Anyone who uses the term "cultural Marxist" non-ironically, is either intellectually-deficient, or an adherent of a particularly-ignorant political ideology.

 

[ViolentPanda]

What proportion of Jews would he have to believe were actively conspiring in order for us to correctly adjudge him to be anti-Semitic?

Well, to be fair, as a Jew I can now admit that we are all out to get him ( frogwoman and I are scouting sniping positions as we speak), but only because he's a vapid skidmark on the underpants of society, nothing to do with his anti-Semitism.

 

[ViolentPanda]

so you can prove norway's suicide rate is directly and solely related to feminism?

Of course.
It's nothing to do with seasonal light disorders affecting males at a greater rate; with the male-on-male competitiveness promoted by patriarchy; with the pressures of modern existence; with the death of religion or any of a multitude of other reasons. It's all down to Norwegian feminists.

 

[el-ahrairah]

i wish british feminists could make pricks like falcon commit suicide. WOMEN< USE YOUR POWERS FOR GOOD!

 

[Epona]

I haven't really read all this thread tbh.

In terms of people modifying their behaviour - honestly I'm not sure whether that is wholly helpful. I think it is useful to be aware whether you may be alarming someone and try to prevent that - for example even though I am female I am very flat-footed and sound quite blokish when I walk (it is something difficult to quantify but I do not sound as though I am a woman, what can I say), late at night on my way back from the bus stop sometimes women glance round nervously at my stomping gait and increase their pace.

You know what though - if a woman is nervous of a bloke walking behind her, there is no actual risk to the bloke. He can feel as uncomfortable as possible, and as misunderstood as possible if he doesn't mean her any harm, but that discomfort is unlikely to be a gripping fear of a life-changing sexual assault in a dark alley - which is what the woman in front may be feeling. I think it is possible to live comfortably with being misunderstood, but a serious sexual assault is a massive violation that can wreck your life and take years to recover from, if at all.

 

[Epona]

Also women are constantly expected to change their behaviour, unfortunately the 'if you were dressed like that/if you were out late at night/if you were drunk' then you were somehow "asking for it" is STILL prevalent. Women are constantly told to watch their behaviour to prevent men attacking them, so I don't think it's too much to ask that men who mean no harm to watch their behaviour to make a little bit of effort to prevent women feel fear.

 

[Epona]

I recall one occasion many years ago where I fell asleep on the bus and ended up at the end of the bus route, instead of at home.

A bloke asked me if I wanted him to walk me home safe. He looked perfectly normal. I have 2 options at this point. He could be a normal bloke like my dad or my brother who wants to make sure a woman who has missed her stop gets home safe. He could be a serial rapist. I have no way of knowing, because people do not have a fucking neon light over their head.

I took a risk (although actually both courses of action presented a risk) and said thank you I wouldn't mind some company. As it turns out, he was a complete gentleman and walked me 2 miles home providing good conversation, understood when I said I didn't want him to come right to my door as it was a bit nerve-wracking with a total stranger, we did swap numbers (this was obvs before I was involved with my husband!) because he was really nice and respectful but nothing ever came of that. He was a very nice, normal, respectful bloke.

Now let's have a think about what might have happened if he had been some sort of nutter. I took a risk, and if it had been the wrong decision, I would almost certainly have been blamed for befriending and walking with a strange man. Thing is that actually it is best for any woman's safety and potential interrogation in terms of police and court case afterwards if she assumes that any man on the street has the potential to hurt her, and takes action to avoid that. In fact that is what we are told every day of our lives - don't talk to strangers, don't dress "slutty", don't get drunk, don't have fun, because you are in danger whenever you let your let your guard down or go out in public dressed more revealing than a nun.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Also women are constantly expected to change their behaviour, unfortunately the 'if you were dressed like that/if you were out late at night/if you were drunk' then you were somehow "asking for it" is STILL prevalent. Women are constantly told to watch their behaviour to prevent men attacking them, so I don't think it's too much to ask that men who mean no harm to watch their behaviour to make a little bit of effort to prevent women feel fear.

Modifying male behaviour seems to me to be the necessary solution, not least because, as you say, all those rape myths used to excuse sexual assault are still out there, still deployed, and still accepted by individuals within the criminal justice system as reasonable justification. A woman should be able to behave and dress as they wish in public or private without having to worry that some pustulent little cockwart is going to use their alcohol intake/their choice of clothing/their not backing up saying "no" with a kick in the bollocks as an invitation to sex. I've read so much shit from Prison Service Sex Offender Treatment Programme summaries where offenders attempt to excuse rape with (to paraphrase) "she was dressed for sex", "she was asking for it", "I bought her drinks all night" etc etc ad fucking nauseam, that I have no time for it.
Personally I see nothing wrong with men being asked or expected to behave in a way that can put women at ease. We are, after all, supposedly civilised creatures with the ability to control our baser urges.
Then again, I'm not a mens' rights activist/social inadequate who chooses to blame my own shortcomings on women.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Now let's have a think about what might have happened if he had been some sort of nutter. I took a risk, and if it had been the wrong decision, I would almost certainly have been blamed for befriending and walking with a strange man. Thing is that actually it is best for any woman's safety and potential interrogation in terms of police and court case afterwards if she assumes that any man on the street has the potential to hurt her, and takes action to avoid that. In fact that is what we are told every day of our lives - don't talk to strangers, don't dress "slutty", don't get drunk, don't have fun, because you are in danger whenever you let your let your guard down or go out in public dressed more revealing than a nun.

While at the same time the media is being used to sell you on the social lubrication available from alcohol; that you should party hearty and all the rest of the lifestyle bullshit that inhabits the glossies and the lifestyle media.

 

[toggle]

Modifying male behaviour seems to me to be the necessary solution, not least because, as you say, all those rape myths used to excuse sexual assault are still out there, still deployed, and still accepted by individuals within the criminal justice system as reasonable justification. A woman should be able to behave and dress as they wish in public or private without having to worry that some pustulent little cockwart is going to use their alcohol intake/their choice of clothing/their not backing up saying "no" with a kick in the bollocks as an invitation to sex. I've read so much shit from Prison Service Sex Offender Treatment Programme summaries where offenders attempt to excuse rape with (to paraphrase) "she was dressed for sex", "she was asking for it", "I bought her drinks all night" etc etc ad fucking nauseam, that I have no time for it.
Personally I see nothing wrong with men being asked or expected to behave in a way that can put women at ease. We are, after all, supposedly civilised creatures with the ability to control our baser urges.
Then again, I'm not a mens' rights activist/social inadequate who chooses to blame my own shortcomings on women.

still a huge difference between modifying rape culture and the case that promted the OP.

 

[Epona]

Does not a single one of you (possibly other than the OP, who may have been making a point) understand that women are expected to modify their behaviour every day to prevent dreadful things happening to them, in terms of the way they behave, the way they dress, their sobriety, their conduct? This should not be the case. It's no good throwing your hands in the air in horror at the suggestion that men ought to modify their behaviour, without similarly standing up for women to have the right do whatever the fuck they like without getting sexually assaulted.

I should be able to fall down drunk in the street without being molested, I should be able to say no without my sobriety or reason being questioned - anyone who thinks that men should not have to modify their behaviour to keep women safe, ought to fucking well realise that women ought not to have to modify their behaviour to keep women safe either.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Does not a single one of you (possibly other than the OP, who may have been making a point) understand that women are expected to modify their behaviour every day to prevent dreadful things happening to them, in terms of the way they behave, the way they dress, their sobriety, their conduct? This should not be the case. It's no good throwing your hands in the air in horror at the suggestion that men ought to modify their behaviour, without similarly standing up for women to have the right do whatever the fuck they like without getting sexually assaulted.

I should be able to fall down drunk in the street without being molested, I should be able to say no without my sobriety or reason being questioned - anyone who thinks that men should not have to modify their behaviour to keep women safe, ought to fucking well realise that women ought not to have to modify their behaviour to keep women safe either.

As I've made obvious in my posts on this thread, some of us do understand, do "fucking well realise", and don't throw up our hands in the air at the thought of modifying our behaviour, we just get on and modify it.

 

[Pickman's model]

Does not a single one of you (possibly other than the OP, who may have been making a point) understand that women are expected to modify their behaviour every day to prevent dreadful things happening to them, in terms of the way they behave, the way they dress, their sobriety, their conduct? This should not be the case. It's no good throwing your hands in the air in horror at the suggestion that men ought to modify their behaviour, without similarly standing up for women to have the right do whatever the fuck they like without getting sexually assaulted.

I should be able to fall down drunk in the street without being molested, I should be able to say no without my sobriety or reason being questioned - anyone who thinks that men should not have to modify their behaviour to keep women safe, ought to fucking well realise that women ought not to have to modify their behaviour to keep women safe either.

yes. but read the thread.

 

[free spirit]

Does not a single one of you (possibly other than the OP, who may have been making a point) understand that women are expected to modify their behaviour every day to prevent dreadful things happening to them, in terms of the way they behave, the way they dress, their sobriety, their conduct?

I counted it up a while ago, and think I've been attacked physically (punched in the face mostly) well over a dozen times by strangers in public places.

In general the prevalence of violence by strangers in public places against young men is around double that of women, and the rate that it happens to young men in public is around 10 times as high as the equivalent rate of sexual assaults in public spaces on women.

I'm in no way equating those attacks with the ordeal of being raped, which is far more likely to happen to a woman and is generally far more serious, I'm just putting those statistics out there to reinforce the point that it's not just women who find themselves having to modify their behaviour when out on the streets for fear of being attacked. Blokes also have good reason to as well, and very good reason to be paranoid when being approached from behind, approaching groups of older kids on the street etc. so we may understand more of those same fears and concerns when out on the street than many women might realise.

I should be able to fall down drunk in the street without being molested, I should be able to say no without my sobriety or reason being questioned - anyone who thinks that men should not have to modify their behaviour to keep women safe, ought to fucking well realise that women ought not to have to modify their behaviour to keep women safe either.

indeed you should, but what we've been discussing in this thread is people modifying their behaviour not to actually keep women safe, but purely to reduce the possible perception of danger that they may or may not be feeling due to our presence.

As JTG pointed out earlier, the reality of the situation is that as long as we ourselves have absolutely no intention of attacking the woman walking in front of us (for example), then the course of action that would actually improve her levels of safety would be for us to continue to walk in view of her as the chances of her being attacked while there's someone else within clear view of her are much lower than if we veered off onto a side street to avoid the possibility of making her feel uncomfortable about having a bloke walking on the same street as her.

ie the question for us is, do we keep a bit of an eye out for those around us when walking through potentially dodgy seeming areas, using safety in numbers as a defence against the real possibility of being attacked, or do we instead find an alternative route to avoid making a woman in front paranoid about your presence, and in doing that actually leave her (and yourself) much more vulnerable to being attacked if there was someone hanging around looking for the opportunity.

I know there's an argument that the woman never asked for my assistance, and I'm definitely not talking about following her all the way home or something daft like that, but deliberately removing myself from the situation earlier than I naturally would have done to avoid fueling her potential paranoia is a difficult call for me. If she then did get attacked a few minutes later I know I'd never forgive myself for making that call and leaving her to her own devices when I didn't need to.

I do modify my behaviour to an extent though, try to ensure I'm not going to pass her at a particularly narrow / dark spot, give her a wide berth when passing, walk on the other side of the street etc and maybe a quick 'evening' and / or a nod of the head if it feels appropriate to ease the tension as I walk passed.

In the case of someone who's fallen over / passed out drunk in the street as well, I'd prefer to check to see if they need some help, see them into a taxi or if needs be call an ambulance rather than playing it safe and ignoring them lest someone might thing I was intent on taking advantage of them. And purely with the intent of making sure they don't die of hypothermia / choking on their own vomit, because I don;t want to be part of the society that prefers to turn a blind eye / walk on by, I'd prefer to look out for other people (especially so given some of the clips I've ended up in over the years), and I guess my instinct from years doing festival stewarding kicks in. If I get a torrent of abuse in response to the query, which does happen, then I'd take that as a sign they weren't in any immediate danger and leave them to it.

(I spent over a decade flyering outside clubs at 2-5am 2-3 nights a week a lot of weeks of the year, so tended to come across these sorts of situations a little more regularly than most probably would have)

If I'm doing it all wrong though, please explain it to me as tbh I get a bit baffled by this sort of thread about exactly what behaviour it is I'm supposed to be modifying / if I'm already doing it / and how that would help the situation.

 

[toggle]

just a quick one free spirit, because although young mren are at risk, it isn[t men who are taught to fear.

it isn't men who are taught that they have to modify their behavior and be chapheroned to aviod being attacked
it isn't men who are told to stay indoors, to dress appropriately, to modify their hairstyle to aviod attack
it isn't men who are questioned upon attack to ensure they did nothing to invite attack, mostly through being themselves in a public space.
it isn't men who are told they invited attack by talking to people.
it isn't men who are told that the attack was their fault and by being a victim of attack, they will be further harassed.

yes, there are specific exceptions to these, but the principle stands that although the risk to both men and women is the behavior of some men, but women are taught more fear of public space. increacing the perception that public space belongs to ultra manlyness, the kind of arsehole that is also a risk to men that Mr arsehole perceives as a target.

you are right in that some circumstances are much more about perception than reality. but with a culture of victim blaming and fear that is taught to women, then sometimes it is necessary to respond to perception. an incomvenience to be sure, but a lot less inconvenient than living with the shit that culture puts on women.

 

[toggle]

i'd also question some of the stats on assault. for serious assault, yes, it's far more likely men are going to get a kicking. but add ine kind of shit women expect on a daily basis. the kind of stuff that is alpha-male power games about ownership of space that women rarely bother reporting, and i'd suspect women get a lot more shit than the stats say.

but we could spend a lot of time trying to quantify who has it worse. suffice it to say, the problem is caused by differing aspects of the same underlying problem. the behavior of arseholes.

if you're already the sort of person who thinks about how your public behavior might be percieved by more vulnerable people and seeks to minimise the impact on them, then you're already becoming part of the solution. and the presence of more not-arsehole people on the streets does make a difference.

 

[Impossible Girl]

Taking advantage of children, women, gays, trans, whatever, isn't acceptable. C'mon do we live in the 21st century or not ? Sometimes I wonder !