Bill and Melinda Gates announce one of the biggest charitable donations in history

[dylans]

You however may have a point, may, not definitely.

Fair enough. I would urge you and others to watch the WNU video that I posted. If nothing else but to see the courage and political savvy of the sex workers who sent Gates packing.

I may be poor, i may be a sex worker. I may have nothing. But I have my life and my body belongs to me

Some of the women on that video are my friends and I have enormous respect for them.

http://blip.tv/file/1418090

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

The truth is that vaccines are not the miracle we are constantly mesmerised into beleiving - at best, they are simply no substitute for clean water and sanitation - the real tamers of disease. At worst, they are poison.

Realising that Bill Gates is the type who doesn't have a humanitarian bone in his body might help make this clear.

Cptin Fceplm strikes again!

 

[frogwoman]

There are two separate lines of argument. Conflating the two does dylans a disservice.

You're probably right there but when I last the thread jazzz wasn't making the arguments that he usually makes.

 

[claphamboy]

The truth is that vaccines are not the miracle we are constantly mesmerised into beleiving

Yet you think the shit sold on the dodgy websites you promote are miracle cures.

ETA:

You know what - I've just back from a lecture where the finishing statement was along the lines of:

"What you believe becomes the truth, because you'll go out of your way to find evidence to support what you believe whilst ignoring the mass of evidence against that belief.

So, just be careful of what you believe."

And I thought, not surprisingly, of Jazzz

 

[Jazzz]

In fact here's some evidence right now, I don't even have to link to any either because the knowledge is so well known that only a completely thick, ignorant and moronic toss bag would dispute it. Remember Polio? Ya know that disease that used to be pretty widespread in the west and hugely widespread throughout the world? Well, how often do you hear of it now? Not much you say? Can you work out why? Was it perhaps something to do with, I dunno, A FUCKING VACCINE PERHAPS?

No.

Polio is still around. It has been re-designated as infantile paralysis, aseptic meningitis, Guillan-Barre syndrome - all of which would have been 'polio' in old money. You change the diagnosis, you eliminate a disease - without curing a soul.

Nonetheless, polio was well on the decline. European countries which had no vaccination saw an end to epidemics just as quickly.

The last thing you wanted if you were around during early polio vaccination was the shot, because you may well have received the cancer-causing SV-40 virus. They knew about it, too, but as ever, profits came first.

What else didn't they tell you? Perhaps most importantly that out of 60 polio patients treated by Dr. Klenner with intravenous vitamin C, 60 patients made full recoveries.

 

[Jazzz]

What you believe becomes the truth, because you'll go out of your way to find evidence to support what you believe whilst ignoring the mass of evidence against that belief.

So, just be careful of what you believe."

And I thought, not surprisingly, of Jazzz

I used to believe as you did. I was brought up to. I was fed, like the rest of us, pro-vaccination propaganda from primary school onwards.

I lost my faith in the face of overwhelming evidence, and changed my opinion.

What have you changed your opinion on?

 

[Blagsta]

No.

Polio is still around. It has been re-designated as infantile paralysis, aseptic meningitis, Guillan-Barre syndrome - all of which would have been 'polio' in old money. You change the diagnosis, you eliminate a disease - without curing a soul.

Nonetheless, polio was well on the decline. European countries which had no vaccination saw an end to epidemics just as quickly.

The last thing you wanted if you were around during early polio vaccination was the shot, because you may well have received the cancer-causing SV-40 virus. They knew about it, too, but as ever, profits came first.

What else didn't they tell you? Perhaps most importantly that out of 60 polio patients treated by Dr. Klenner with intravenous vitamin C, 60 patients made full recoveries.

fuck off Jazzz you utter fucking loon, stop making shit up

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

The reason the Gates Foundation goes so heavily for medicine is that unlicensed copies of drugs are at the front line in worldwide intellectual property rights issues.

South Africa struck a deal with Argentina to buy a shit load of copied AIDS drugs. The IMF stepped in and bullied SA to pull out of the deal, then as punishment they executed Argentina's economy.

If Microsoft is to continue in its global domination it has to ensure that there are no breaches of intellectual property rights and they know full well that cheap drugs for the world's poorest is where the property rights will be breached first.

Of course $10billion is loads and will do a load of good and is more than anyone else has ever given. Lined up against what Microsoft stands to lose though it is suddenly not so much.

 

[claphamboy]

The last thing you wanted if you were around during early polio vaccination was the shot, because you may well have received the cancer-causing SV-40 virus. They knew about it, too, but as ever, profits came first.

As much as I feel sorry for the couple behind that website losing their kid to brain cancer some years after taking the polio vaccine in 1997, which is some 35 years after sv40 was found in and removed from polio vaccines, there's no evidence of any connection between his death and the vaccine.

In fact, even on their website's home page they state that it is only "ALLEGED that there have been SV40-contaminated batches of oral polio vaccine administered to some children until the end of the 1990's."

On the other hand 10s or 100s of millions had the vaccine back in the 60s without dropping death and U.S. National Cancer Institute announced in 2004 that although SV40 does cause cancer in some animal models, "substantial epidemiological evidence has accumulated to indicate that SV40 likely does not cause cancer in humans."

What else didn't they tell you? Perhaps most importantly that out of 60 polio patients treated by Dr. Klenner with intravenous vitamin C, 60 patients made full recoveries.

Can’t even by arsed to read much beyond the title of that site, ‘Doctor Yourself – world’s largest health homesteading website’, and who’s behind it and why, i.e. Andrew Saul with the aim of flogging his questionable books.

The unqualified Andrew Saul sits on the editorial board of the peer-reviewed ‘Journal of Orthomolecular Medicine’ (JOM) set-up by his mate and co-author Dr Abram Hoffer.

JOM is on the Quackwatch's Nonrecommended Periodicals list complied by Stephen Barrett, M.D. because he "consider these publications untrustworthy because they promote misinformation, espouse unscientific theories, contain unsubstantiated advice, are insufficiently skeptical, and/or fail to distinguish between reliable and unreliable sources of advice."

JOM is also excluded from the U.S. National Library of Medicine for inclusion in their database for much the same reasons.

I lost my faith in the face of overwhelming evidence, and changed my opinion.

No, you ignore the overwhelming mass of evidence and, just like the JOM, you fail to distinguish between reliable and unreliable sources.

You just pick out small pieces of 'evidence' to support your beliefs, you're a fucking fruitloon.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

JOM is on the Quackwatch's Nonrecommended Periodicals list

Jazzz has stated in the past something along the lines of, in his opinion, something being on Quackwatch is pretty much an endorsement of it

 

[editor]

Quackwatch's Nonrecommended Periodicals list[/URL] complied by Stephen Barrett, M.D. because he "consider these publications untrustworthy because they promote misinformation, espouse unscientific theories, contain unsubstantiated advice, are insufficiently skeptical, and/or fail to distinguish between reliable and unreliable sources of advice."

JOM is also excluded from the U.S. National Library of Medicine for inclusion in their database for much the same reasons..

That's fairly damning stuff, Jazzz, so why do you link to it? Please explain.

 

[frogwoman]

No.

Polio is still around. It has been re-designated as infantile paralysis, aseptic meningitis, Guillan-Barre syndrome - all of which would have been 'polio' in old money. You change the diagnosis, you eliminate a disease - without curing a soul.

Nonetheless, polio was well on the decline. European countries which had no vaccination saw an end to epidemics just as quickly.

The last thing you wanted if you were around during early polio vaccination was the shot, because you may well have received the cancer-causing SV-40 virus. They knew about it, too, but as ever, profits came first.

What else didn't they tell you? Perhaps most importantly that out of 60 polio patients treated by Dr. Klenner with intravenous vitamin C, 60 patients made full recoveries.

I was actually agreeing with you until you posted this

 

[Jazzz]

That's fairly damning stuff, Jazzz, so why do you link to it? Please explain.

ptchah. Not this just 'shoot the messenger' again, without contesting the information.

It is a fact documented in medical journals that Klenner successfully cured 60/60 polio patients with IV Vitamin C treatment.

Here is the reference:

Klenner, F. (September 1956) Poliomyelitis-case histories. Tri-State Medical Journal pp. 28-31.

 

[Jazzz]

I was actually agreeing with you until you posted this

good! progress

 

[Blagsta]

ptchah. Not this just 'shoot the messenger' again, without contesting the information.

It is a fact documented in medical journals that Klenner successfully cured 60/60 polio patients with IV Vitamin C treatment.

Here is the reference:

Klenner, F. (September 1956) Poliomyelitis-case histories. Tri-State Medical Journal pp. 28-31.

Funnily enough, the only results Google throws up for that are whale.to, doctoryourself.com, your post I've quoted and a reference to whale.to and someone having a rant about Jesus.

Well done Jazzz

*slow hand clap*

 

[dylans]

Funnily enough, the only results Google throws up for that are whale.to, doctoryourself.com, your post I've quoted and a reference to whale.to and someone having a rant about Jesus.

Well done Jazzz

*slow hand clap*

Yes well done Jazz. Bill Gates would be very impressed. You have managed to distract people from serious and legitimate criticisms of BBGF by descending into bollocks speak again. If I was a conspiro-nut I would suspect you were planted by the "lizards" to discredit their opponents. Well done

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Here is the reference:

Klenner, F. (September 1956) Poliomyelitis-case histories. Tri-State Medical Journal pp. 28-31.

Are you really this fucking stupid?

 

[Doctor Carrot]

Here is the reference:

Klenner, F. (September 1956) Poliomyelitis-case histories. Tri-State Medical Journal pp. 28-31.

Bahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

It appears John is the Jazzz of the medkb forum .

 

[editor]

As an aside, I met an American woman from a poor background tonight who said that she owed her education to Bill Gates who provided funding for her college grants, commenting that - unlike other grants - she didn't have to jump through hoops to get the cash.

She wouldn't hear a word said against him.

 

[Fuchs66]

She wouldn't hear a word said against him.

Obviously a brainwashed corporate drone

 

[dylans]

Consent letter to be signed by all sex workers in Cameroon who agree to take part in tenofovir trials

“In case of infection ... we will not procure treatment against AIDS. We will be able to direct you to clinics where you will have to pay

http://www.womynsagenda.org/publications/q&a21 from WNU.pdf

 

[Fuchs66]

Consent letter to be signed by all sex workers in Cameroon who agree to take part in tenofovir trials



http://www.womynsagenda.org/publications/q&a21 from WNU.pdf

Not argung against you here I'm just after more information, how do the conditions for the test participants in Asia and Africa compare with the conditions for test participants in the west? As I know it there is a financial reward and treatment for any acute conditions produced as a side effect of the drugs being tested and that's about it. There are no guaranteed long term medical aid and also no compensation if the drug turns out not to work, if I have understood it correctly then there's not that much difference, if I'm wrong please educate me.
My stand on health care is that everyone should have the right to free essential treatment btw.

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

The reason the Gates Foundation goes so heavily for medicine is that unlicensed copies of drugs are at the front line in worldwide intellectual property rights issues.

South Africa struck a deal with Argentina to buy a shit load of copied AIDS drugs. The IMF stepped in and bullied SA to pull out of the deal, then as punishment they executed Argentina's economy.

If Microsoft is to continue in its global domination it has to ensure that there are no breaches of intellectual property rights and they know full well that cheap drugs for the world's poorest is where the property rights will be breached first.

Of course $10billion is loads and will do a load of good and is more than anyone else has ever given. Lined up against what Microsoft stands to lose though it is suddenly not so much.

This - and What Sihhi said.

Ignore the swivel eyed consiracy loon, and why not try and respond to some of the genuine criticisms of Gates?

Fairplay Gates has given $10billion, that's a good thing and will be some help, I'm sure that he geniunely wants to help some of the poorest people - but he is doing it in a way to defend property rights, it's a rational and cold blooded decision that will help to cement his and his fellow big capitalists position at the top of the heap.

I remember talking to someone who used to live in a part of Liverpool where Curtis Warren the notorious gangster used to live, he (Warren) made a part of his fortune from the sale of drugs and the lending of money at high interests to some of the residents, he also put money into the building of a community centre and gave money to needy pensioners and people who needed to pay for medical treatment. Did that make him a good person who just wanted to give something back? Or was he just buying support in order to protect his investments?

It was probably a bit of both, and the same is true of Gates - people are confused and divided internally, and seek all sorts of justifications for what they are doing.

Unquestioned cheerleading for multi billionaires, and wingnut attacks on vaccines do nothing to expose the underlying rotteness at the heart of the system which means some people can do this in the first place.

 

[Blagsta]

^good post

 

[dylans]

Not aruing against you here I'm just after more information, how do the conditions for the test participants in Asia and africe compare with the conditions for test participants in the west? As I know it there is a financial reward and treatment for any acute conditions produced as a side effect of the drugs being tested and that's about it. There are no guaranteed long term medical aid and also no compensation if the drug turns out not to work, if I have understood it correctly then there's not that much difference, if I'm wrong please educate me.
My stand on health care is that everyone should have the right to free essential treatment btw.

First, everyone, including the sex workers in Cambodia and Cameroon are aware that at some point medical testing on human beings is necessary. They don't oppose drug trials in and of themselves. Rather they question the motivation for using women from developing countries and they question the ethics of drug trials there as opposed to the west. In other words it is precisely the differing standards between drug trials in the West and drug trials in developing countries that is central to their concerns.

It is important to bear in mind that these are very poor vulnerable women who live in very poor countries. As such, medical treatment that can be assumed here would be impossibly expensive for them.

Obviously, there is a benefit to anyone whom tenofovir prevents from being infected with HIV, if it proves able to do that it is not likely that many ordinary Cambodians would be able to use it. In the United States, the wholesale price of Viread is $360 per month.Gilead has said that if tenofovir proves useful in preventing HIV transmission, it will sell it to poor countries at “cost”. Only Gilead knows for certain what its costs are. However, the company already has an “access program” to provide tenofovir to poor countries at a price of $39 a month. (Haiti is the only country in Latin America or the Caribbean to qualify under Gilead’s definition of “poor”). If that were the price here, the drug would still be beyond the reach of most Cambodians.

So even if the standard were the same as for the west it would be unfair and exploitative because one cannot simply compare a poor developing country with the west. To do so is itself a guarantee of exploitation

But they don't even pretend to apply the same standards. Indeed one of the reasons for drug trials in developing countries is that they are cheap.

It seems clear that tenofovir is being tested mainly in poor countries because that is cheaper than doing it in rich countries. In effect, this means that Cambodians would be used for the experiment because they are poor, and this makes it easier to deprive them of the protections that would be normal for such a test conducted in a rich country.For example, the tenofovir trial involves only five counsellors and one doctor for 400 sex workers. And all of the counselling is offered in English, a language little used in Cameroon.It is normal in developed countries that tests involving human beings are overseen by an ethical review committee that is independent of the test sponsors. Community based ethics review committees are also increasingly a norm in many situations. There has been no mention of such a committee for any Cambodian test.

And the reasons for this have little to do with "humanity" (whatever that means)It has everything to do with the profits of the pharmaceutical companies

“The value of tenofovir to Gilead is inarguable. In the second quarter of 2001, the firm posted a net loss of $32.4 million. Losses have been continual for the 15‐year‐old company. This spring, with tenofovir accounting for nearly half of Gilead’s sales, it announced a second quarter profit of $19.7 million.”

When the Cambodian, trials were cancelled as a result of the refusal of sex workers to take part, they were attacked in the media and blamed for depriving "science" and "humanity" of valuable research. One of the sex workers in WNU was incredulous and said. "Humanity? What has "humanity ever done for us? " They were expected to risk their health and their lives for the benefits of drug companies and for medical treatments they would never benefit from and with no guarantee of any benefits from the trials or support in the case of infection. It is no surprise they saw through this sham and told Gates to take a hike. They were soon followed by Cameroon and Nigeria.

Hey, but an American girl got her college grant without jumping through too many hoops. That's nice

http://www.womynsagenda.org/publications/q&a21 from WNU.pdf

 

[editor]

Hey, but an American girl got her college grant without jumping through too many hoops. That's nice

I imagine it adds up to more real help than you've ever given anyone, ever, but that's besides the point, Mr Sneery.

No one is saying that Gates is beyond criticism or that the way that his money is being spent shouldn't be scrutinised and challenged where necessary, but patronising comments like yours and idiotic rants from others about him "tearing apart humanity" and being part of some conspiracy to cull Africans aren't going to persuade anyone to look deeper into the issues.

Some perspective might help. What percentage of his money, for example, is being spent on these sex workers trials and what is Gates' direct involvement? Has he ever responded directly to those criticisms?

I can't be arsed to click on PDF files, sorry, so please offer a précis where appropriate.

 

[dylans]

I imagine it adds up to more real help than you've ever given anyone, ever, but that's besides the point, Mr Sneery.

No one is saying that Gates is beyond criticism or that the way that his money is being spent shouldn't be scrutinised and challenged where necessary, but patronising comments like yours and idiotic rants from others about him "tearing apart humanity" and being part of some conspiracy to cull Africans aren't going to persuade anyone to look deeper into the issues.

Some perspective might help. What percentage of his money, for example, is being spent on these sex workers trials and what is Gates' direct involvement? Has he ever responded directly to those criticisms?

I can't be arsed to click on PDF files, sorry, so please offer a précis where appropriate.

I have found no example of Gates responding directly to these charges. I would dearly love to see such a response. However there have been numerous responses by both Gilead ( the pharmaceutical company developing tenofovir) and by researchers involved in the study.

The demand for long term medical insurance was counterclaimed by an investigator affiliated with the trial in 1 report[50]. She mentioned that this appeal was (1)impossible to meet due to the enormous costs this would entail. She further mentions that there is no place in the world, where participants in clinical trials receive coverage for life. A representative from FHI directly counters the allegations made concerning the violation of human rights[47]. The FHI representative countered that the sex workers involved in the trial are offered an enhanced standard of care well beyond what is typically offered in Cambodia and other HIV prevention trials. No investigators or officials were reported responding to the allegations regarding the use of a placebo nor the claim that counseling is purposely limited to ensure some seroconversions.

http://ukpmc.ac.uk/articlerender.cgi?artid=7734

It shoulld be apparent what is wrong with the above but in case it isn't I will spell it out
1. They are saying that despite the fact that Gilead stand to make a packet out of those trials, it was too expensive for them to offer basic standards of health care to some of the poorest people on earth in return for research that would make them millions.
2. This comment, that participants were offered "enhanced standard of care well beyond what is typically offered in Cambodia,"is so cynical that it beggars belief. Typical health care in Cambodia is practically non existent. An aspirin is well beyond what is typically offered. (and that is exactly what sex workers were offered for side effects to trial drugs-aspirins. )

I will get back to you on the costs of the trials.

 

[sihhi]

He's already saved more lives than you ever will.

He's also ruined and destroyed more than all of us combined as a result of his wealth and our poverty.

The biggest question about the project is whether it will sustain itself once the Gates people walk away, after spending about $250 million on the project.

Mr. Gates seems ready to check the library project off his to-do list. His model was Andrew Carnegie, who left hundreds of sturdy libraries standing in small towns as part of his philanthropic legacy.

"You know, Carnegie was a pretty hard-core guy," he said, leaving Main Street here, where the biggest digital sign displays the price for wheat: $4.80 a bushel. "I'd be happy if I could think that the role of the library was sustained and even enhanced in the age of the computer."

Source: Timothy Egan, "Bill Gates Views What He's Sown in Libraries" (NYTimes, November 6, 2002).

It should tell us something that he sees Andrew Carnegie - murderer of his employees in lockouts using strikebreaking armies - as his model.

All the arguments on this thread in favour of Gates are also re-hashings of philanthropy philosophy:
http://www.swarthmore.edu/SocSci/rbannis1/AIH19th/Carnegie.html
"but he gives away a lot of money"

 

[editor]

I have found no example of Gates responding directly to these charges. I would dearly love to see such a response. However there have been numerous responses by both Gilead ( the pharmaceutical company developing tenofovir) and by researchers involved in the study.

So you don't actually know what percentage of Gates' charitable donations have been used for these trials, what his direct involvement is, or if he is even aware of the criticism?

He's also ruined and destroyed more than all of us combined as a result of his wealth and our poverty.

Could you elaborate on this please? How has his wealth "destroyed" people?

Some might argue that by giving the world the most popular operating system and facilitating cheap computing an awful lot of people's lives have immeasurably benefited but I'm sure you've got a well researched answer to rebuff some a crazy notion.

 

[sihhi]

I imagine it adds up to more real help than you've ever given anyone, ever, but that's besides the point, Mr Sneery.

No one is saying that Gates is beyond criticism or that the way that his money is being spent shouldn't be scrutinised and challenged where necessary, but patronising comments like yours and idiotic rants from others about him "tearing apart humanity"

You're attacking dylans without justification.

All billionaires tear apart humanity, Gates is no exception.

Gates self-aggrandisement - a museum in his honour.
http://blogs.wsj.com/wealth/2009/11...dation-need-a-500-million-shrine/tab/article/

Gates' failures in India
http://www.business.in.com/article/cross-border/how-bill-gates-blew-$258-million-in-indias-hiv-corridor/852/0

“Twenty percent of the people we now see are infected, the same as when we started.”

but private parasitic firm McKinsey made profit out of the ventures.