BBC - Owen Jones

[ViolentPanda]

He's just aiming for the niche market.

Given his philosophising, I'm surprised he's not aiming for the Nietzsche market.

(gets coat, legs it)

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

Given his philosophising, I'm surprised he's not aiming for the Nietzsche market.

(gets coat, legs it)

Without looking I assumed that was a bignose1 post

 

[phildwyer]

As one of the few people here who actually used to know articul8 a bit, I don't think he's a scumbag.

I can vouch for that too, having met him a couple of times. Apart from anything else if he was really a careerist he wouldn't hang around here taking flak...

 

[Pickman's model]

Articul8's not a scumbag. He doesn't have the character.

 

[articul8]

Articul8's not a scumbag. He doesn't have the character.

odd the obsession that the privately educated have with things being "character-building"

 

[articul8]

As one of the few people here who actually used to know articul8 a bit, I don't think he's a scumbag. I just think that frogwoman's description "wrong about everything, ever" was spot on.

Err, thanks? Funny how the SP have maintained the old (and entirely self-defeating) Stalinist tradition that an ex-comrade becomes "wrong about everything, ever"!

 

[grit]

odd the obsession that the privately educated have with things being "character-building"

PM went to a private school?

 

[articul8]

There's a quote from Leo Panitch from The End of Parliamentary Socialism that I put in my article that I know you love so much, and I think it's appropriate here.

“For its part, the Labour new left contributed to its own defeat through some major weaknesses. The most important of all was, evidently, that in concentrating on trying to change the Labour party it became trapped in that struggle. It never solved the problem of having to fight for its goals through unending party committee’s and conferences without becoming absorbed by them. For many it was a point of principle to try and win the party over to a new democratic socialist project by persuasion and the fullest use of the party’s existing democratic processes. But the bitterness of the right’s resistance prolonged the struggle over so many years that almost a whole political generation consumed their energies in this way.”

I totally agree with this - it's why I'm clear from the outset that extra-parliamentary, extra-Labour struggle is critical - doesn't mean that there is nothing to be achieved from contesting the space in any way whatsoever though. Just that you musn't be sucked into it at the expense of building a "new democratic socialist project".

 

[love detective]

Err, thanks? Funny how the SP have maintained the old (and entirely self-defeating) Stalinist tradition that an ex-comrade becomes "wrong about everything, ever"!

I've met you a few times and I thought you were a very pleasant individual. But get the feeling you would be much more comfortable and contented working in academia, where you could then be a lot more open and accepting of the fact that wage labour activism is never going to lead anywhere. You would also do a lot less damage being wrong in academia than in these kind of political activist jobs you seem to do/cherish

 

[ViolentPanda]

Without looking I assumed that was a bignose1 post

 

[ViolentPanda]

PM went to a private school?

No, articul8 believes that Pickman's Model went to private school, which isn't quite the same thing.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

not really, but it's better than being a sell out careerist shitbag.

Jesus, you'd think he was taking a job as NIck Clegg's speechwriter from that hyperbole.

 

[articul8]

No, articul8 believes that Pickman's Model went to private school, which isn't quite the same thing.

He's not denying it.

 

[cesare]

He's not denying it.

Why would he bother to?

 

[ViolentPanda]

He's not denying it.

Which is obviously ABSOLUTE proof that he must be a public school Old Boy.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Why would he bother to?

Quite.

 

[love detective]

Jesus, you'd think he was taking a job as NIck Clegg's speechwriter from that hyperbole.

He's already worked for Nick Clegg on electoral reform (sic)

 

[Jeff Robinson]

He's already worked for Nick Clegg on electoral reform (sic)

Lots (edit - hardly lots given the result but you get what I mean!) of people (not me I should add) supported AV without being pro-lib dem.

 

[love detective]

not many people earned a living from supporting it though!

 

[Jeff Robinson]

not many people earned a living from supporting it though!

So would it have been better to have supported it in a personal capacity and have a job in the arms industry say? Would that be more honorable?

 

[love detective]

why have you turned it into a morality play?

your initial point was that 'it's not as if articul8 was working for nick clegg' - i pointed out that in effect he's already been there

but as to your point, this idea that class struggle via political activist wage labour is ever going to lead anywhere is politically naive and ultimately just becomes self serving, as we have seen as well it's completely undemocratic and unaccountable - where was this new job of articul8's advertised for example?

and also are you saying that people who end up working in the arms industry to pay the bills and can't get work anywhere else are less honourable than the right honourable articul8?

 

[Pickman's model]

odd the obsession that the privately educated have with things being "character-building"

you're the only person here talking about character building, i'm talking about innate character.

 

[articul8]

but as to your point, this idea that class struggle via political activist wage labour is ever going to lead anywhere is politically naive and ultimately just becomes self serving, as we have seen as well it's completely undemocratic and unaccountable - where was this new job of articul8's advertised for example?

and also are you saying that people who end up working in the arms industry to pay the bills and can't get work anywhere else are less honourable than the right honourable articul8?

So I might as well throw my lot in with Nukem at Weber Shandwick and earn 4 or 5 times as much at least?

 

[Jeff Robinson]

why have you turned it into a morality play?

your initial point was that 'it's not as if articul8 was working for nick clegg' - i pointed out that in effect he's already been there

but as to your point, this idea that class struggle via political activist wage labour is ever going to lead anywhere is politically naive and ultimately just becomes self serving, as we have seen as well it's completely undemocratic and unaccountable - where was this new job of articul8's advertised for example?

and also are you saying that people who end up working in the arms industry to pay the bills and can't get work anywhere else are less honourable than the right honourable articul8?

It was already a morality play when other posters fiercly denounced articul8 as being a sell out, a careerist and so forth. I'm trying to discover what the basis for such righteous indignation is. According to you it's because what he does is ineffectual and maybe self serving - in which case he's basically no different to most people with a job is he?

 

[love detective]

So I might as well throw my lot in with Nukem at Weber Shandwick and earn 4 or 5 times as much at least?

at least then you wouldn't conflate/confuse class struggle with your career

 

[phildwyer]

at least then you wouldn't conflate/confuse class struggle with your career

And you don't?

 

[love detective]

It was already a morality play when other posters fiercly denounced articul8 as being a sell out, a careerist and so forth. I'm trying to discover what the basis for such righteous indignation is. According to you it's because what he does is ineffectual and maybe self serving - in which case he's basically no different to most people with a job is he?

there's a huge difference - everyone else has a job because they need to work to live, no one other than the likes of articul8 pretends that his job is politically important/relevant and in some way a positive contribution to the development of progressive working class politics

 

[phildwyer]

there's a huge difference - everyone else has a job because they need to work to live, no one other than the likes of articul8 pretends that his job is politically important/relevant and in some way a positive contribution to the development of progressive working class politics

So you're involved in politics out of the goodness of your heart?

 

[love detective]

And you don't?

i've never had any kind of political or academic job, so not sure how it would be possible to conflate class struggle with a career

 

[love detective]

So you're involved in politics out of the goodness of your heart?

self interest actually, like any good communist