Barking: Greens splitting anti-BNP vote

[articul8]

it's unwinnable - but a split in the left vote there won't let the far right through.

 

[Fedayn]

Standing Green candidates in totally unwinnable situations allowing BNP to make high-profile gains would help how exactly?

The left should concentrate on building its own local base - perhaps in low profile council wards, not limping into a major contest it can't win where the BNP has done the groundwork

And leave the BNP unchalleneged by the kind of community work needed? Leave the opposition to them to 'official anti-fascism' which is exactly what will happen if it's left to Labour to beat the BNP.

 

[butchersapron]

it's unwinnable - but a split in the left vote there won't let the far right through.

Nor will it here - it's telling you still count labour as the left vote, do you intend to drive the BNP from councils by voting labour as well?

 

[articul8]

It's not going to allow them to make a high-profile gain.

It might not. But there is a danger that it would. Why risk that, when there are other - better - areas for the Greens to target.

 

[butchersapron]

The risk of a BNP win is tiny, the risk and dangers of falling into the logic trap of vote labour everywhere forever is far far worse.

 

[butchersapron]

Would a lib-dem candidate be splitting the left vote?

 

[articul8]

Would a lib-dem candidate be splitting the left vote?

It might - in part - depends on local context - it's not inconeivable that a section of their vote (particularly those former Labour voters that appreciate their "pavement politics") could be won to a left position.

 

[butchersapron]

Could be won to a vote labour position then.

Fucking hell.

 

[articul8]

I didn't say that.

 

[butchersapron]

You just said they they could be won to a left position whilst arguing that the only left position in Barking is voting labour.

 

[articul8]

And leave the BNP unchalleneged by the kind of community work needed? Leave the opposition to them to 'official anti-fascism' which is exactly what will happen if it's left to Labour to beat the BNP.

what makes you think that the Green party are at all capable (let alone best placed) of building community support in communities likely to be attracted to the BNP?

 

[butchersapron]

what makes you think that the Green party are at all capable (let alone best placed) of building community support in communities likely to be attracted to the BNP?

Now you're shifting the goalposts to the content of the greens politics rather than the principle of them standing. You're being well shit on this thread.

 

[articul8]

You just said they they could be won to a left position whilst arguing that the only left position in Barking is voting labour.

No - I would hope that a much more radical left alternative would emerge at some future point. But for it to do so it needs a major reorientation of the political space that governs electoral politics. Simply standing a no-hope candidate in the BNPs main target seat doesn't even get close.

In this election voting Labour is the least worst option for the left. But not an attractive one.

 

[frogwoman]

labour isnt the left though.

 

[butchersapron]

No - I would hope that a much more radical left alternative would emerge at some future point. But for it to do so it needs a major reorientation of the political space that governs electoral politics. Simply standing a no-hope candidate in the BNPs main target seat doesn't even get close.

In this election voting Labour is the least worst option for the left. But not an attractive one.

In the meantime strangle anything independent at birth via the labour/bnp bogeyman - and as said above, standing in unwinnable seats can be a useful way of establishing your base then developing it. It's not all about wining immediately.

 

[articul8]

Now you're shifting the goalposts to the content of the greens politics rather than the principle

There is no general principle at play - I'm not saying never stand in a seat the BNP might win. I'm saying not this one, not unless you've got a bloody good reason to believe that something concrete can be gained by it. (what is it the Greens would be achieving?)

 

[articul8]

standing in unwinnable seats can be a useful way of establishing your base then developing it. It's not all about wining immediately.

There are circumstances when I'd agree and might recommend it. This isn't one of them - particularly for the Greens who have no idea about building a base in this kind of community.

 

[butchersapron]

There is no general principle at play - I'm not saying never stand in a seat the BNP might win. I'm saying not this one, not unless you've got a bloody good reason to believe that something concrete can be gained by it. (what is it the Greens would be achieving?)

You've spent the whole thread implicitly arguing that there is - which is why your argument would apply if it was the IWCA rather than the Greens as well.

 

[butchersapron]

There are circumstances when I'd agree and might recommend it. This isn't one of them - particularly for the Greens who have no idea about building a base in this kind of community.

Luckily my argument doesn't rest on it being the Greens being the ones doing it. If it was the IWCA then, would you make the same arguments about Barking?

 

[articul8]

If it was the IWCA I'd be prepared to listen to any serious and realistic claims for what might be got out of it. I'd wonder what was the reason for prioritising Barking. I'd be sceptical but not automatically opposed.

 

[butchersapron]

But then you've just thrown your whole argument over!

 

[ViolentPanda]

Not just you - but the logic of the system means that voters are effectively choosing between electing Griffin and electing Hodge.

No, the logic of the system, given the political demographics of the constituency, is that you're choosing to vote for Hodge or one of her mainstream counterparts, given that a BNP win would require an almost unprecedented increase in vote, even with the BNP's one-eyed burglar standing.

 

[ViolentPanda]

The point I'm making is not "never oppose Labour" when the BNP is standing...

It has that effect, nonetheless.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Standing Green candidates in totally unwinnable situations allowing BNP to make high-profile gains would help how exactly?

Well, as you're choosing to operate within a system of parliamentary democracy, it helps to maintain the principles of parliamentary democracy.

The left should concentrate on building its own local base - perhaps in low profile council wards, not limping into a major contest it can't win where the BNP has done the groundwork

What they should or shouldn't do is, in the final analysis, up to them. That's the price you pay for our current system.

 

[CyberRose]

If people are concerned about splitting the anti-fascist vote, why not turn the tables and split the fascist vote?

Just get someone to stand for the following parties (if they're not already intending to stand):

National Front
English Defence League
No2EU
English Democrats
UKIP
The Rule Britannia Britannia Rules the Waves Party
Germany 1 - 5 England Remembrance Party
Close British Borders Party

The list above should easily knock a few hundred votes off the BNP's vote!

 

[articul8]

But then you've just thrown your whole argument over!

No I haven't! I've said it is irresponsible for the Greens to stand against Hodge in Barking - because there is no significant basis for arguing that there is some concrete gain in the longer term to be won.
I think it would be highly questionable tactically even for organisations which have a more credible claim to building a class based alternative to stand in Barking this time round.

But where have I argued that it's a hard and fast principle NEVER to stand where the BNP have a chance of winning?

 

[butchersapron]

No I haven't! I've said it is irresponsible for the Greens to stand against Hodge in Barking - because there is no significant basis for arguing that there is some concrete gain in the longer term to be won.
I think it would be highly questionable tactically even for organisations which have a more credible claim to building a class based alternative to stand in Barking this time round.

But where have I argued that it's a hard and fast principle NEVER to stand where the BNP have a chance of winning?

Hang on you've argued, over and over, in this case that anyone standing is splitting the left vote and thereby offering the BNP an unprecedented chance to win a high profile seat and that countering this by voting labour should take precedence over all over issues - then you say, no sorry, i didn't really mean that, i'd have to have another think if the IWCA were standing. So why, has the dangers of a BNP victory dissipated? Why has the principle changed?

 

[butchersapron]

No I haven't! I've said it is irresponsible for the Greens to stand against Hodge in Barking - because there is no significant basis for arguing that there is some concrete gain in the longer term to be won.

...and no you didn't, you said it was because it would split the 'left vote'. You've now been forced into arguing it's about the content of those splitting that 'left vote' by opposing votes since. It's not very consistent.

 

[articul8]

I'm making a point about this election in Barking. A Green candidate is most likely to take votes off Labour and LDs - the mainstream standard centre-left anti-BNP bloc. (maybe "left" was going too far). They will never be a pole of attraction for the kind of people who might vote BNP. They can only help Griffin - so I'm attacking them for running.

BY contrast I recognise that their project is not primarly aimed at existing "mainstream" voters but those disillusioned Labour voters who either won't turn out or who might otherwise vote BNP. So there is a slightly different logic at play here and so tactically the question is posed. But I would still very much doubt whether Barking would be the priority even for a project with more promise in the longer term.

 

[articul8]

voting labour should take precedence over all over issues -

Where have i said that?!