butchersapron
Bring back hanging
If not now, when? If not you, who?
Barking: Greens splitting anti-BNP vote
- Thread starter articul8
- Start date
articul8
Dishonest sociopath
The point I'm making is not "never oppose Labour" when the BNP is standing - It is that in the specific context of Barking, small parties standing candidates is encouraging people to cast votes that have no influence on the outcome, in circumstances when the BNP might just - I'd put it no strongly - be poised to take a massive historic leap forward in terms of publicity/profile.
That would suggest that you consider the election of Hodge about as big a setback as the election of Griffin.
I don't accept that.
That would suggest that you consider the election of Hodge about as big a setback as the election of Griffin.
I don't accept that.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Not for me it ain't. Who do you support - the Iranian Theocracy or the US state? Are there any other options? Simple minded anti-imperialism imported into domestic politics - genius.
In that case i really really hope that Hodge wins. Not that i think she is much good but i would hate to see Griffin win the seat.
But i think that the Greens should definetely stand. The idea that they should not stand to let Hodge win is crap in my view. What does it say to the electors its BNP v the Rest.....Or BNP v the establishment parties. Exactly what the BNP would want the voters to think.
The best way to combat the BNP would be to expose them for what they are and to talk openly and honestly about the issues of crime and immigration where people feel so let down by the main parties (and the greens,left etc)
The greens should definetly stand.
Louis MacNeice
Autumn Journalist
The logic of the system may mean that the final outcome will be between Hodge and Griffin (with Hodge the comfortable winner is my prediction); however, there is nothing logical in you turning that into a demand that people pick electoral sides to the exclusion of all other voting options. Running into the arms of an anti-working class bully (NL) to protect you from a racist anti-working class bully (BNP) is not a piece of political advice I'd either give or choose to take.
Louis MacNeice
newbie
undisambiguated
not for you but for the people of Barking it is. Their choice is real and, collectively, decisive, one or other of G or H will end up in the HoC. You can put yourself in their shoes for the purposes of debate.
The left of labour groups are irrelevant, except in as much as they might split off a few votes. Same goes for Tories, Libdems and all the theories about this and that... there is just the stark choice, Hodge, Griffin or walk away singing que sera sera.
The left of labour groups are irrelevant, except in as much as they might split off a few votes. Same goes for Tories, Libdems and all the theories about this and that... there is just the stark choice, Hodge, Griffin or walk away singing que sera sera.
Louis MacNeice
Autumn Journalist
No the choice on the ballot paper is the choice of all those candidates on the ballot paper; remember people don't always vote with the expectation of winning, they have other reasons for putting down their cross.
Louis MacNeice
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
In which case they've got you by the short and curlies for ever - Griffin is not going to win this seat, and not by a measly 500 votes. If you can't oppose labour in one of their safe seats how the hell are you intending to drive the BNP from their well entrenched council seats without a policy of voting labour?
And you've moved now from saying that i actively want a BNP victory to seeing them as at least equally bad. I'm flattered
TremulousTetra
prismatic universe
Are British people really too stupid to understand "vote for the crook, not the fascist"? I think not.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
I told you who i hoped win - i put my self in their shoes. Why exactly are the tories going to definitely do worse then the BNP anyway? What's decided you on this?
Louis MacNeice
Autumn Journalist
No their choice is just that; it's theirs, not yours or mine. This attempt to limit it down not through a genuine political discussion of the consequences of voting this way or that, but rather by trying to scare everybody with Griffin as some sort of approaching Armageddon is short sighted, narrow minded and dangerous.
Louis MacNeice
newbie
undisambiguated
well yes, that's true, but as irrelevant as the fringe parties. Who cares why people put their cross where they do, if they don't vote for either Hodge or Griffin they're simply not engaging in the decision at hand in this specific, highly symbolic, case of the leader of a farright party.
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
Well exactly.
I love how it will be the Green's fault, should Griffin get in - but thats to be expected given the way that the Green Party have consistently attacked the interests of their own voters, sold their soul to big businesses and lobbyists, ruined the economy, got involved in one illegal war and incompetently managed a second one, ignored large swathes of their manifesto promises, and generally helped to ruin faith in politicians for at least a generation.
Those bastard Greens!
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
As it goes -the boundary changes have added 3500 votes to labour even with the green vote holding up. Thiss is silly scaremongering and betrays a real lack of nerve and belief in the possibility of independent non-labour political organisation.
Louis MacNeice
Autumn Journalist
Is that the limit of your politics; attempting to draw an analogy from a French presidential election into a single uk constituency? You can see the that the circumstances and potential outcomes are somewhat different; or are you just clutching at straws?
Louis MacNeice
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
...and i'd still be very interested in hearing what the local green parties arguments were....
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
the green party had one million voters in the european elections. UKIP had two million. I don't think they should be written off that easily. And voting for another party other than hodge or griffin - or ideed not voting at all - is engaging in the political process.
articul8
Dishonest sociopath
If there was a credible alternative to compete for the seat, it might be worth doing. If it was of relatively little import - say BNP getting a 5th councillor somewhere - then it might be worth doing to establish a real presence for the future. FWIW I defended NO2EU in standing against Griffin in the NW at the Euros.
I'm not saying never. I'm saying that now wouldn't be a good call in Barking, certainly not for the Greens.
articul8
Dishonest sociopath
TremulousTetra
prismatic universe
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
How the hell are you supposed to get credible candidates without standing? Leaving thew field to the BNP, Labour and tories forever is never going to help you establish then develop credibility.
And there are the other London seats they are standing in where they are not likely to win, where are Left candidate is more needed (26 London seats to be fought, I believe)
articul8
Dishonest sociopath
Standing Green candidates in totally unwinnable situations allowing BNP to make high-profile gains would help how exactly?
The left should concentrate on building its own local base - perhaps in low profile council wards, not limping into a major contest it can't win where the BNP has done the groundwork
The left should concentrate on building its own local base - perhaps in low profile council wards, not limping into a major contest it can't win where the BNP has done the groundwork
articul8
Dishonest sociopath
exactly, why not fight in somewhere like Peckham against Harriet Harman.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
It's not going to allow them to make a high-profile gain. All you're doing is ensuring the same tawdry charade is played out again in 4-5 years time because..guess what..there's no other candidate whose built up a base from the last election...and on and on we go forever. And sorry, but standing in high profile elections can be a good base for establishing the sort of community work you want to see - it's not all about about winning the seat.
