Avatar (James Cameron) [SPOILERS]

[Yuwipi Woman]

it should never have won the cinematography award - cinematography requires cameras, not computers

There's room for technical innovation in the cinematography category.

 

[mwgdrwg]

Had a great time watching Tron not long ago!

Seen the Tron Legacy trailer? Absolutely amazing!

 

[revol68]

It's the best out there right now. In a year or two's time, though, it will look silly. That's the trouble with trying for photorealistic CGI, it ages very badly.

I don't think it will ever look silly, it will be superseded but there can be no doubting that Avatar represents a qualitative leap forward in CGI and animation.

 

[mwgdrwg]

I don't think it will ever look silly, it will be superseded but there can be no doubting that Avatar represents a qualitative leap forward in CGI and animation.

I agree...everyone said that the Matrix would look shit in a few years...still looks good 10 years on to me.

 

[belboid]

Cinematography (from Greek: kinema - κίνημα "movement" and graphein - γράφειν "to record"), is the making of lighting and camera choices when recording photographic images for the cinema.

Look words up before trying to comment upon them, dumbo

 

[Kid_Eternity]

The scenes with the tree were definitely laughable.

Some of the bits when they're riding animals is terrible animation.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

you are on a wind up.

name one film with superior CGI, name one with better animation?

your taste in everything is shit, you don't like the first Resident Evil games or FFVII.

Oh and Avatar is popular but it is not populist, it's politics are far explicitly against US militarism, the overrated piece of pseudo intelligent middle brow crap called The Hurtlocker is pro US shit. The Hurtlocker is this generations The Deer Hunter, a film lauded for dealing with 'the war' which in truth does no such thing, rather it white washes the role of the US and turns it into an american tragedy.

Oh and that scene with the British mercenaries was embarrassing gung ho shit , no better than any Rambo movie.

It's a racist film for westerners to feel good about their neo colonial pasts.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

I agree...everyone said that the Matrix would look shit in a few years...still looks good 10 years on to me.

I rest my case.

 

[revol68]

Cinematography (from Greek: kinema - κίνημα "movement" and graphein - γράφειν "to record"), is the making of lighting and camera choices when recording photographic images for the cinema.

Look words up before trying to comment upon them, dumbo

yes because language and terminology are Platonic forms and definitely not in any shape or form fluid labels whose actual meaning stems from there common use and understanding.

Anyway you undermine your own retarded point because as you say it comes from the greek to record movement and I'm afraid that would apply to the recording of movements created by CGI.

 

[mwgdrwg]

I rest my case.

I object!

I've seen bullet time in hundreds of adds and music videos, but none look as cool as they do in The Matrix.

 

[revol68]

It's a racist film for westerners to feel good about their neo colonial pasts.

except this isn't about neo colonial pasts it's about whats going on now and into the future.

It's easy for films like Dancing with Wolves to be made 200 years after the events it's about, it's completely different to make an explicitly anti US imperialist film when US troops are in the middle of their occupations. Like I said in my earlier posts on this thread, Avatar is the only film you will get to see on general release that actually encourages you to cheer US marines getting fucked up.

Ofcourse you prefer to take the easy middle brow snob approach and belittle a film because it's mainstream and massively popular.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

Cinematography (from Greek: kinema - κίνημα "movement" and graphein - γράφειν "to record"), is the making of lighting and camera choices when recording photographic images for the cinema.

Look words up before trying to comment upon them, dumbo

I'm not certain why you're fixated on outmoded technology. Computers are just another method of capturing the image for cinema. The same choices go into production of the film with a computer as it does with a camera.

BTW, Wikipedia?

 

[Fedayn]

except this isn't about neo colonial pasts it's about whats going on now and into the future.

It's easy for films like Dancing with Wolves to be made 200 years after the events it's about, it's completely different to make an explicitly anti US imperialist film when US troops are in the middle of their occupations. Like I said in my earlier posts on this thread, Avatar is the only film you will get to see on general release that actually encourages you to cheer US marines getting fucked up.

Ofcourse you prefer to take the easy middle brow snob approach and belittle a film because it's mainstream and massively popular.

Or just massively overhyped and an absolute victory of style over content.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

I don't think it will ever look silly, it will be superseded but there can be no doubting that Avatar represents a qualitative leap forward in CGI and animation.

I think it is quite likely to look crude eventually. It's wonderful now, sure; even my cynical brain enjoyed it, though mostly because of the design rather than the implementation. But given how dodgy lots of older big-CGI films look now, I think in a few years' time we will be saying "yeah it was great then, dated now though, look at how X moves or what the detail on Y is".

I spend a lot of time on Uncanny Valley issues and I can certainly say that Avatar hits a few. There are two things that I think people still don't do properly: firstly, bone/musculature and skin, skin's never proper and what's supposed to be underneath it doesn't help. Skin is not PVC and even very sophisticated skeletons don't properly simulate how fibres and muscles look. To me, they look like rubber still.

Secondly, the animations still aren't as good as they could be - which is an artistic issue, not a technological one. There's a certain sort of overly fluid movement that animated animals have that just feels wrong. You can mocap humans, but for organic things where you can't it's incredibly hard to do - this isn't calling people rubbish, this is very very tricky stuff, but it's still not right.

 

[revol68]

I'm not certain why you're fixated on outmoded technology. Computers are just another method of capturing the image for cinema. The same choices go into production of the film as it does with a camera.

BTW, Wikipedia?

as a supposed Marxist he should be ashamed of his reactionary approach to such matters.

 

[belboid]

ooh, revols been back to school to learn two new words!

It is very clearly NOT cinematography, because the CGI removes ALL need for camera choices. It is predetermined. Same reason no cartoon has ever won a cinematography award. Because it doesnt involve cinematography. At the most generous one would say it involves no complex cinematography, because it simple points and shoots. The DP has no choices to make. Hence, even if we are generous to the utmost, it should never ever win any kind of award for the skill.

 

[pboi]

nice post Fridge.

Can I ask you to point out better examples of Skin/Animations? Its something I like to look out for and thought Avatar was really rather good. ( ?I studied Comp Sci) but I dont work in animation professionally.

are you getting at its more about execution and pitch vs the computing power put behind the animation, as uncanny valley plays a part here?

 

[belboid]

Computers are just another method of capturing the image for cinema.

No they're not, they creat the images, cameras dont.

The same choices go into production of the film with a computer as it does with a camera.

Not entirely true - you can create any world so you dnt have to manipulate it in the same way. But that isnt even the point, I'm not saying there was no skill in creating that look, nor that what Avatar did wasnt very good. But it isn't cinematography. In the main its Art Direction. And it was a worthy winner of that award.

BTW, Wikipedia?

quick n easy. And, in this case, entiely accurate.

 

[mwgdrwg]

ooh, revols been back to school to learn two new words!

It is very clearly NOT cinematography, because the CGI removes ALL need for camera choices. It is predetermined. Same reason no cartoon has ever won a cinematography award. Because it doesnt involve cinematography. At the most generous one would say it involves no complex cinematography, because it simple points and shoots. The DP has no choices to make. Hence, even if we are generous to the utmost, it should never ever win any kind of award for the skill.

You do know they filmed the actors using a camera beforehand?

 

[belboid]

as a supposed Marxist he should be ashamed of his reactionary approach to such matters.

and your approach is as ill-informed and ill-formed as i would expectg from an actual reactionary like you

 

[revol68]

Or just massively overhyped and an absolute victory of style over content.

This film has more political content than 99% of the shit released in the cinema, if you can't pick up on it's non too subtle subtext then that's your own failings.

I'll paypal you a tenner if you can name one major cinema release this year that is as explicitly anti US imperialism than Avatar.

The best thing about the film was that it didn't chicken out and go for some reconciliation shit.

The fact that such a film was the biggest grossing and most expensive film in cinema history and that it was used to promote McDonald's Happy Meals makes it all the better, it shows that a sense of resistance and moral indignation can capture the popular imagination, that it isn't just something for middle brow wankers cramming into art house cinemas.

You should read some Ernst Bloch, son.

 

[belboid]

You do know they filmed the actors using a camera beforehand?

yes, in front a blue screen (or was it a green now?). But no one is seriuosly suggesting those were the bits that looked impressive are they?

 

[FridgeMagnet]

nice post Fridge.

Can I ask you to point out better examples of Skin/Animations? Its something I like to look out for and thought Avatar was really rather good. ( ?I studied Comp Sci) but I dont work in animation professionally.

The thing is, no, I can't - I don't want to slag the people who made Avatar off really, because it's so bloody tricky to do. I've seen a few shorts I think which have really nice animations of living creatures but actually, they tend to be hand drawn.

 

[belboid]

This film has more political content than 99% of the shit released in the cinema, .

only if you're a fucking ten year old. It's pathetic liberal pseudo-politics were as naff as the godawful script. There's as much politics in High School Musical as there is in Avatar.

 

[mwgdrwg]

yes, in front a blue screen (or was it a green now?). But no one is seriuosly suggesting those were the bits that looked impressive are they?

You were seriously suggesting that the DP had no choices to make, so I can't take anything in this discussion seriously.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

No they're not, they creat the images, cameras dont.

You're still fixated on the means rather than the image itself and the choices that go into it. They're still making all the same choices. The technolgy used is meaningless. They're just taking part of the image created with a camera and merging it with other images. Every single movie made today gets a going over with CGI, even your basic comedy. Get with the 21st century, man.

 

[revol68]

and your approach is as ill-informed and ill-formed as i would expectg from an actual reactionary like you

you're an idiot, for a start if you wish to use your literal definition based on two greek words for capturing movement, then I would like to point out that there was huges amount of work put into Avatar to capture movement, afterall the whole basis of it's animation was about accurately capturing how the actors move and translating that into the CGI.

 

[belboid]

fine, you lot want to go back and give cinematography awards to cartoons too. Fair enough, but you're all wrong.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

This film has more political content than 99% of the shit released in the cinema, if you can't pick up on it's non too subtle subtext then that's your own failings.

I'll paypal you a tenner if you can name one major cinema release this year that is as explicitly anti US imperialism than Avatar.

The best thing about the film was that it didn't chicken out and go for some reconciliation shit.

The fact that such a film was the biggest grossing and most expensive film in cinema history and that it was used to promote McDonald's Happy Meals makes it all the better, it shows that a sense of resistance and moral indignation can capture the popular imagination, that it isn't just something for middle brow wankers cramming into art house cinemas.

You should read some Ernst Bloch, son.

You said all this before I saw it, and I thought it was balls then, and I think it's even more balls now I've seen it It's a horrible conglomeration of every existing "noble savage" concept imaginable, mixing up every "tribal" trope in cinema to make the Na'avi mishmash. Every character is a stereotype and the entire plot is predictable from the first time anything is even hinted at - oh she's the daughter of the chief how surprising, oh they get it on, oh look there's a myth about riding a big dragon thing I wonder if the hero will do that. The bad guys are basically mailed through from the first time you see them.

It's considerably less anti-imperialism/militarism than Starship Troopers for a start, if you want a comparison aliens-and-stuff film.

 

[belboid]

you're an idiot, for a start if you wish to use your literal definition based on two greek words for capturing movement, then I would like to point out that there was huges amount of work put into Avatar to capture movement, afterall the whole basis of it's animation was about accurately capturing how the actors move and translating that into the CGI.

And your a fucking idiot because I have never denied the 'huges' work. But it is a totally different thing to 'cinematography', it is a technical not artistic achievement.