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Athens Greece: Cops murder a 16 year old

Derf, fuck off and read some 20th-century Greek history before you make yourself look an even bigger cunt.

Modern Greek history isn't a specialist subject for me but I am aware they have had many political problems in the recent past but that does not excuse continuing those problems with new political violence.

That post was a question about what what the anarchists would do with those who are intent on harm if they have no police force or army to deal with them.

Don't suppose you are up for an answer are you?
 
love the assumptions derf makes. I'm sure most of the posters here don't want his fantasy construct of utopia that he assumes the 'lefties' want.

In my case, I'll find space for that cunt in the lime pit. But most of the posters would actually try to change such a man.:confused:
 
poli10.jpeg


The murder point where Alexis was killed on 6th of December 2008 ...

I was out of the web for a couple of days not because of "christmass" but because I was in bed - hospital, doctors etc.. The reason? Problems with my breathing because of all the chemicals that I have inhailed. I was feeling a lot of pressure to my lungs, thankfully that was only because I was using the gas mask very long and my lungs were working more in order me to breathe normally, so they got tired.... I am given a sprey for my nose, also some pills that make me sleepy a lot, one more that makes me cough all the time in order to clean my lungs ... hopefully I will get better soon.

At Taxamo: Yes the take over finished... Basically the only take over that continues is the one of the Law Department but even this has nearly nobody in there remaining, it is possible that it will also stop. These take overs lasted for long enough anyway, for more than 18 days, and the fact that not a lot of students remained in them basically means that asylum is over and police could raid in anyway. It does not neccesarily means that the struggle is over, or that they will not be taken over again in the recent future, it depends on what the assemblies will decide...

What we witnessed, during those 15 days is something that we have not seen again ... This was an uprising that started by school students, by the generation of playstation, ipods and computer games, and not by any political movement... The left movement and parties, quickly enough understood that they "lost" control of the situation, as the demands of the students had nothing to do with them... Anarchists and anti authoritarians, were more closely related with all this, but the mass media worked well to label all of us as "vandals" and actively tried to allienate us from the community.

University students followed this uprising quite well... More than 160 university departments were taken over by students, maybe a lot are still under occupation, and struggled on the streets and the demos with the school pupils. Political movements within the uni students, especially the left ones, created more problems than helped, as they could not decide on a common framework of action but everyone was trying to support their own theories and beliefs..

The workers movement did not participate that much.. A lot of workers were on the streets during the last days, but again the various political movements and parties created more splits rathen than unite the workers to a common struggle. The general strike of GSEE was hopefull but only lasted one day, and GSEE decided not to participate on the big demo that day but did a gathering at Syntagma square instead... The result was a lot of workers not to participate on the gathering but to the demo, but the damage was allready made. For the next big demo, GSEE did not decide for a general strike, so the building was occupied by comrade workers. On a general assembly that took place on that day there, more than 800 workers attended (the first time that something like this happens at GSEE since the 30s) and decided for a general strike, but the most unions did not attend. Nodoby expected anything different though, the most unions are controlled by right wing or "socialist" (DAKE and PASKE) syndicalists, who try to use their role for their own interest, rather than fight for workers rights.

A lot of things have to change within the workers movement... Just attending a demo one day and next day returning to work, to this modern slavery, really does not change much.. Actually it even helps the system even more .... The workers should try to inform more their collegues within their work environment, to make the workers to go against the unions that are controlled by syndicalists - puppets of the system.

The local communities should also be informed more for the uprising and our demands. I did notice one poster here earlier on this thread pointing this out, I agreed a lot but decided not to comment on that point, as I felt and believed that providing information was more important then... We can all understand that the mass media, their propaganda, actually controls the oppinion of the community on various subjects of our lifes... There was an effort with radio stations of the occupied buildings, as well as by taking over other popular radio stations, even TV channels.... They maybe helped but not a lot in my opinion. Alternative information is a big must, more and more comrades should be involved on trying with any means possible to inform more and more people on their area, their neighborhood and try to involve them on this uprising. It is as important as demos, even more importand than them in a lot of occassions...

This whole period did give its messages though... A lot of people came on the streets, a lot that have never been up to now, because the reason that got them there this time was the murder of an innocent kid... it could be anybodys child, it could be anyone of those teenagers that were on the streets as well.. Do not forget that during this time one more school kid was also shot, thankfully not killed, because that kid did the "mistake" of being a communist and speaking with his friends for the demos .... A lot of people therefore witnessed for their first time the police brutality, did see men with full faces and clubs hitting them instead of the police, they did see innocent people and kids that were just passing by being arrested by the police, people that are now charged with serious crimes and felonies that they never did.. All these things, that up to now the common citizen did not know, or had heard but not believed in, they now did see it with their own eyes.

The school kids did give their message also that they DEMAND a different world.. That no matter how much propaganda and lies their are been told, they have the ability to think critically and understand what is happening, they understand more than the system believes that they do... School kids within all Greece witnessed for their first time police violence and chemicals, and definately understood that if they demand something they will have to really fight for it, even by risking their own health and life ..

Maybe this uprising now is not really so evident as it was during the first days... A lot of us are now tired, or even with health problems (like me), but that does not necessarily means that everything is over... 9th of January is not that far, it will be a good test to see how many of us are determined to continue and how many not...

My belief? .... NOTHING IS OVER YET.
 
Because I was in bed during these 2 days I do not have that much info if anything is still happening but from what I know :

Various arson attacks against banks and luxury cars have taken place in Athens during the last 2 days. Also the car of one minister was burned completely in Ioannina, where he was for christmass. On christmass day, some people gathered at the christmass tree of Athens, and sang carols with altered words and meaning though. The christmass tree is "decorated" by the appropriate police force, 24 hours a day this year, in fear that it will get burned again... It has definately became the new symbol of consumerism in Athens.

A demo has been organized in Gyzi (area very close to the city centre) today, also an assembly at the polytechnic building, in order appropriate solidarity actions for the arrested to be organized. A demo will also take place in Ptolemaida, north Greece.

I did see a post here about the woman that was attacked by acid, a spontaneous gathering outside the hospital she is in took place yesterday.. Also today a building of HSAP (the company she was working for) has been taken over in solidarity by workers.

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Modern Greek history isn't a specialist subject for me but I am aware they have had many political problems in the recent past but that does not excuse continuing those problems with new political violence.
Given Greece's history over the last 100 years, I'm only surprised that the masses exercise as much self-control as they do, given the provocation the state has heaped on them.
I'm not a great fan of "political violence", but I'm not an ideological pacifist. I accept that sometimes the only way to send a message effectively is at the end of a fist.
If the state strikes out at you, then it's not incumbent on you to turn the other cheek and wait for another slapping. If the state steps beyond it's constitutional contract then to not fight back is a far worse thing than to resist.
That post was a question about what what the anarchists would do with those who are intent on harm if they have no police force or army to deal with them.

Don't suppose you are up for an answer are you?
I'm happy to answer for my own position, but I can't say that my answer is representative of anarchists in general, because I only hold a remit for my own views.

What would I do with those intent on harm if there were no police force or army?
I'd protect me and mine. It's what I do anyway.

You labour under a delusion though, if you believe that the arms of the state are there to protect you. They're present to protect the state's interests, and to be seen to fulfil their side of the "social contract".
 
G

I'm happy to answer for my own position, but I can't say that my answer is representative of anarchists in general, because I only hold a remit for my own views.

What would I do with those intent on harm if there were no police force or army?
I'd protect me and mine. It's what I do anyway.

You labour under a delusion though, if you believe that the arms of the state are there to protect you. They're present to protect the state's interests, and to be seen to fulfil their side of the "social contract".

I must take a closer look at Greek history in the period you mention and especially the last 20 years as most of those involved seem to be around that age and so it is what they are familiar with.
As for your answer I do believe that we have common ground there. I would do the same to the point of death for the attacker if I considered a repeat serious attack was likely and I was in a position to do so.
In an anarchist world that would seem to be fine but I wonder how that squares with the killing of the kid if it turns out he was a risk to the cops.

If that proves to be the case then the cops would seem to be acting on anarchist principles and should become heros of the revolution.
 
I must take a closer look at Greek history in the period you mention and especially the last 20 years as most of those involved seem to be around that age and so it is what they are familiar with.
Try the last 40 years and you'll get a fair idea why many of them probably had parents who loathe the state.
As for your answer I do believe that we have common ground there. I would do the same to the point of death for the attacker if I considered a repeat serious attack was likely and I was in a position to do so.
In an anarchist world that would seem to be fine but I wonder how that squares with the killing of the kid if it turns out he was a risk to the cops.

If that proves to be the case then the cops would seem to be acting on anarchist principles and should become heros of the revolution.
Well, you miss the point that the police are employed by the state to facilitate the rule of law, and that rule includes not taking a life except in extremis, which the extant evidence doesn't indicate. Using the old South Park "I've got to shoot it, it's coming right at me" schtick isn't a good enough or appropriate defence.
As for the police acting on "anarchist principles", how could they be when they're employed by a state that exercise coercive powers over it's citizens? Anarchism isn't a synonym for "chaos" or "murderous intent", you know.
 
But that's what they are doing. The riots are bring chaos and those tossing petrol bombs could be considered to have murderous intent.
Why do people riot, derf? Usually it's to send a message.
As for petrol bombs, having been on the giving and the receiving end of them, I can assure you that very few people, even worldwide, are killed or even severely injured by them, mostly because people only put petrol in them, with no gelling agent, so the petrol goes up in one big "WOOMF" of liquid and vapour. If you actually had murderous intent, you'd mix some ground polystyrene or some soap flakes to the mix, so that it would stick to whoever it hit.
 
Why do people riot, derf? Usually it's to send a message.
As for petrol bombs, having been on the giving and the receiving end of them, I can assure you that very few people, even worldwide, are killed or even severely injured by them, mostly because people only put petrol in them, with no gelling agent, so the petrol goes up in one big "WOOMF" of liquid and vapour. If you actually had murderous intent, you'd mix some ground polystyrene or some soap flakes to the mix, so that it would stick to whoever it hit.

I am in the happy position of never feeling the need to try to damage anyone or anything with a petrol bomb. I freely admit to beating a couple of people up who were a serious threat to me or people I was with including one lad who's face looked like a slice of tenderised beef after a few minutes of me bashing him in the mush. His fault for attacking me with a weapon.
I'm also short of experience of having a petrol bomb tossed my way I'm pleased to say.

I would agree that a riot isn't always without justification but it depends on the situation at the time and your intentions.
In this case their aims don't seem to be conducive to the general good of the majority.
 
I would agree that a riot isn't always without justification but it depends on the situation at the time and your intentions.
In this case their aims don't seem to be conducive to the general good of the majority.

We won't be in a position to know that until after the event.
 
VERY GOOD VIDEO

It shows some incidents and a arrest in Athens, it is good because the uploader put english subtitles and so you can understand what is being said.

 
ARRESTS (from 06/12/08 to 21/12/08)

Arrests: 246 - detained/ pretrial custody: 66
ARRESTS (from 06/12/08 to 21/12/08)

Arrests: 246 - detained/ pretrial custody: 66

ATHENS: 50 immigrants arrested in the first three days of the uprising sentenced to 18-month imprisonment in trials without interpreters and may be deportated, (every other day arrests are occuring, the picture is still blurry). Also on 7/12, 7 arrests were made for misdemeanors [one minor will be judged on 29/01 and 6 adults on the 26/06] on the 9/12 2 arrests were made and a regular trial date was set, on 11/12 5 people were imprisoned [ 3 Greek citizens and 2 immigrants] and 15/12 they imprisoned another 4 people (according to the blog for the ASOEE squat). On 18/12 they arrested 8 persons accused of crimes (according to word from comrades).

THESSALONIKI: 21 Arrests (3 minors will go to court on 13 February 2009 - the others, mostly foreigners are convicted and none are in custody, but the number is most likely higher - according to the blog of the ASOEE Squat).

KOZANI: 34 Arrests (the 3 in custody are: Ziampras, Papadimitriou, Mark - in Grevena prison - is seriously injured with a burn to the nose from teargas, and was transferred to hospital in Athens - according to lawyers, comrades and the blog of ASOEE Squat).

PTOLEMAIDA: 7 Arrests (according to lawyers and comrades).

LARISA: 25 Arrests under terror laws [i think!] (17 students - 4 adults in custody - Koridalos prison- according to lawyers and comrades).

PATRA: 21 Arrests (9 minors, no one in custody - according to word from comrades).

CHANIA: 6 Arrests (no one in custody - according to word from comrades).

IRAKLION: 22 Arrests [11 parents for child neglect (!!!!!), 7 minors (with 4 being required to see the commissioner for minors once a month), and 4 adults of which 2 convicted have restrictive bail conditions (1500 euro guarantee for each, with fees that amounts to approximately 2200 and mandatorily seeing the police twice a month) - in accordance with word from comrades).

VOLOS: 6 Arrests (5 minors to be tried on 26 February - the adult sentenced to 2 years and 10 months suspended sentence, released on bail for Euro 1000 - according to media).

RETHYMNO: 1 Arrest (on 15/12, a minor was arrested and his father was prosecuted for child neglect - neither are in custody - according to media).

Kavala: 2 Arrests (one on 8 / 12 and one on the 10/12 - no one detained - according to word from comrades).

KASTORIA: 1 Arrest of a minor (fined 4,500 euros for damage - not detained - according to media).

ZAKYNTHOS: 6 Arrests (5 minors released under restrictive conditions and will be tried on the 19 March - no one detained - according to word from comrades and the media).

RHODES: 18 Arrests [7 were arrested 08/12 (on bail), 10 on the 09/12 (two minors, three high school students, three uni students and two workers, free on bail € 5,000 and the adults showing up once a month to [the department], the minors to turn up once a month to the commission for minors) and on Thursday 10/12 they caught a 17 year old for throwing a Molotov at the court house, he was held until yesterday (Wednesday 17/10) when he was freed (the arrest was based on video from the mobile phone of the witness). Prosecutions also made by the city of Rhodes, with allegations of child neglect against the parents of minors - according to the media].


No arrests were made in the following cities where clashes took place, marches/rallies or simple protests:

Serres, Chalkis, Ioannina, Veria, Xanthi, Komotini, Alexandroupolis [according to comrades of those cities].

Drama, Trikala, Karditsa, Florina, Chios, Mytilene, Corinth, Kefalonia, Lamia, Agrinio, Nafpaktos, Naousa, Syros, Amfissa, Samos, Corfu, Arta, Kalamata, Sparta, Tripoli, Missolonghi, Tower, Igoumenitsa. [according to the (local) media and indymedia].

The presentations were several thousand and are therefore impossible to calculate, thats why they're not reported.
 
We dont want to disturb our government from their sleep or to disturb the political rulers of this country. We also dont want to disturb the economic powers and the "common citizen". He lives in an another world anyway. The world that the Mass Media are describing every day. A world, where political and enocomic power are rulling. For this reason they created the "common citizen", an image that would be commonly accepted. But this citizen was absent from the December's uprising.

It this uprising of course citizens were inlolved, as well as in the movements in solidarity of the prisoners some time ago, the movements for the environment, the immigrants, for the city! Where the modern politics get produced

This social- political work is against the system and the current political and state rulling. This work overcomes the system. The political parties even if they want to join in something social, they are denied access because they are not reliable. They do not understand the social reality, so they watched this uprising from distance.

This society does not just watch the failure of the state. It actively tries to take control of the situation. This society wants to have the right to decide for themselves, overcoming the partisan - parliamentary system. This society fights against the capitalists' lobby, the market, the private capital.

We are in a warzone, that the government and the political powers have no real control. They are using the police in order to terrorize. They are using armed forces and mobs like OPKE (special police force for prevention and oppression of crime) special guards and border guards. But who is afraid of them?

Even if the government did not manage to get any message from this uprising, it is impossible that they did not see thousands of school students on the streets who overcame the state violence, and RIOT police (MAT), that exist only in order to repress social reactions.

The murder of Alexandros Grigoropoulos was a dominant decision. It was the result of a no tolerance politicy, that makes the ones that exercise this policy to hate freedom. The reaction of the society was clearly political. Whoever does not consider this, does not mean that can actually avoid it.

If on this uprising the society used the minimum violence possible, the minimum responce of the political system should be to drop this regime of assasins and to justify the immediate demands of the society.

We do not want to disturb the government from their sleep, but the collective feeling of a public uprising cannot stand to have hostages in the hands of the state. The effords of the mass media to differentiate the bad demonstrators from the "common citizens" has no effect. As we said these citizens did not take part in this uprising.

Immediate hault of any legal pursuit of the 253 arrested demonstrators of all Greece

Immediate release of all detained

Immediate abolition of the anti terrorism law, as it has been evident that is being used only against demonstrators.


The climax of our solidarity to all these will be immediate.
This uprising got its right to exist.

From now on, everything is going to be different !!

Appoitment: Wednesday 31/12 23:30 at Syntagma square

Anti Authoritarian Movement (AK)
 
Let me also tell you that various left and anti war groups have called for a gathering tonight at Syntagma square on 23:00 in solidarity to the palestinians in Gaza

An another call from anarchists is a demo outside the Koridallos prison establishment tonight at 23:00

School students have called for a sit down demo at Syntagma square tonight on 23:30

Also demos have been organized in Peristeri (Athens suburb), Chalkida, in Thessaloniki, in Patras a motorbike demo will go to the prison establishment there.

THIS TIME OUR "NEW YEAR'S EVE" WILL BE ON THE STREETS.
 
Well ..., an update from our new year of Fear in Athens...

So far, not so much ... fear
There was a decent enough crowd though at Syndagma in front of the Parliament (where there was a call from Anti-authoritarian movements and other radical left parties) but by the time I left nothing spectacular had happened. There was a group of Palestinians -mainly- shouting slogans but they were not that many and had only obstructed a small part of Amalias ave and cars were still passing.
A funny thing... the dogs that are always part of our demonstrations here in Athens were chasing the passing cars and bikes and were barking even louder than the protesters at times... well anyway it could have been better. The Greeks that we have gathered we did not do much, not much shouting or barking for that matter, just standing and walking a bit aimlessly it seemed. Anyway there were a lot more people down in the square where all the festivities the mayor had organized were taking place- no reports about that, I didn't enter those ... festive events. I did read though on Indy that there might be a nice festive surprise for that damn tree ...
In Peireas I read there was an arson attack on a Natinal bank's ATM

But...

In Korydallos, (area close to Peireas) outside the prison there seem to have been a really festive atmosphere, a lot more people (some reports say about 1000) and a lot of emotion. When they lit the fireworks the prisoners also started putting fires on papers and blankets.

(copying from a report send to Indy)

"At the change of the year, the prison's black sky was lit by the bright fireworks of the uprising. ;)

After a bit we started heading towards the women's prison. The crowd was bigger than in the beginning and so about 600-700 of us reached the parking across the women's prison.A lot of comrades we went in the parking area and the guys holding the banner climbed some lorries so that the banner could be seen by the women prisoners. They answered back at our slogans by putting fires and shouting back. Everybody was thrilled I think when we heard them shout 'cops, pigs, murderers' and the 'passion for freedom is stronger than any prison' ...
After the assembly the crowd dispersed in different directions.
'Heartfelt' and Uprisen the new year!
Optimism and anti-authority is deep in our hearts. Let's continue the uprising!"
and some photos from tonight at Koridallos :
( http://athens.indymedia.org/front.php3?lang=el&article_id=958925 ) in one of the banners "Immediate release of All the arrested during the Uprising of December"
and videos from new year's eve at Koridallos http://athens.indymedia.org/front.php3?lang=el&article_id=959426
so ... Nothing is Over !

*there is another call (from the coalition "Stop the War"-in Palestine) for a demo starting in front of Propylaia for the 3rd of Jan at 3.00pm
 
The last week has been telling. Apart from a small jobby on new year's eve where the workers movement for getting their own way had a small walkabout and claimed the city fireworks display was all their own work and part of a protest that seemed to have gone off like a wet banger.
The rest seems to have gone a bit quiet.
Perhaps all the good comrades are now leaving their petrol bombs in campus and making bangs with Christmas crackers pulled with mummy and daddy.
Face it a week or two of chaos (when not raining 'cos the comrades don't want to risk catching a cold) has ended with fuck all but a load of damage and all the tourists thinking "fuck Greece for a holiday, we'll bog off to Italy instead".

Desperation made you try to tag a worthwhile cause on to your stupidity with the Gaza protest but that seems to have done sod all to bolster your flagging support.
Here's hoping all those arrested end up in the nick for a very long time and those who are not native to your country and have proven themselves unworthy to live there get booted out smartish.

Congrats. You have done for Greece in a couple of idiotic weeks what years of bad government failed to do. You have made your country appear to be the home of a bunch of cunts in the eyes of the world but achieved fuck all else.
 
to derf

you would know about desperation and all ,especially about seeking attention, wouldn't you?
my comment about your last remarks :
 
You still reply to derf? :p

What happened outside Koridallos prison (and inside) was very inspiring. I was there :)

Fireworks outside the prison, fire inside by the hostages of the state. We were definately around 1000 comrades there, fireworks and fires all over the place, the people from inside responding to our chants and starting fires as well. It was a "new years eve" that I will never forget :)


THE PASSION FOR FREEDOM IS BIGGER THAN ANY PRISON

YOU FROM INSIDE AND US FROM OUTSIDE
TOGETHER WE WILL DESTROY THIS STATE AND THEIR LAWS
 
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