Are Astral Travels real or imaginary experiences?
- Thread starter qbeac
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Hi Jaed, ok, I admit that (to a certain extent), but I see what you mean. And now let me ask you something:jæd said:
Do you think the mathematical probabilities of guessing those two words by chance should be "about the same" both for the OBEer as for the control group (which does not have any OBEs)?
In other words, do you think both groups have about the same chances of guessing those two words?
fractionMan
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*falls off chair*gurrier said:
Hi jæd, you are totally right.jæd said:
But in our case we will simply have to wait for the results, because without doing the experiments we cannot now what the results will be: maybe the results between both groups are very similar, slightly different, very different…?
In the meantime, there are people around the world who say they can see those words (or numbers) while astral travelling, so now we’ll have to wait and analyze the data when we have it on the table, which is normal procedure in science.
But, in case the results were significantly different between the two groups, I believe the experiment would be a valid one. On the contrary, if the results are not significantly different, the experiment would not clarify anything.
qbeac.
qbeac said:
You're contradicting yourself there...
So... Lets run through it:
* If the potential OBE-ers have a number of successes then they have the power to project themselves through the universe
* If the control group have a higher number of successes, then what does that mean...? They were astral travellers in plain clothes...?
This is a test to see who is lucky, not astral travel...
Hi editor, it is not “the same”, but it has “certain similarities” in the sense you are “deducing” the existence of something you cannot see by applying “different scientific knowledge”. In the case of the planets, you calculate the masses of the two objects and their gravitational effect on each other, but you do not see directly the unseen planet. In the case of the OBEs, you calculate the probability of guessing by chance a random number and comparing the results in the two groups: the OBEer and the control group. It is not a direct proof, but it could at least raise the alarm that something anomalous is happening which should not be happening according to current scientific knowledge.editor said:
Hi jæd, this debate right now depends on the results, and we don’t have them on the table yet. The possibilities are still open. If the control group showed a VERY significant number of right guesses as compared to the OBEers, frankly, I haven’t thought how that should be interpreted, but it certainly would be a very interesting result worth taking a closer look at it.jæd said:
So, until we have those results, all we can do is making hypothesis about different “possible results” and speculate on what their meaning may be.
If I may give my current personal opinion, I believe the OBEer will show a significant greater number of correct guesses than the control group, and I say that based on the numerous testimonies of people who can do controlled OBEs, but I may be totally wrong.
Let me give you just one example (I know more):
- AmericanIdiot has read a 4 digits number while in the OBE state:
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=178717#178717
qbeac.
Hi WouldBe, that has always happened in science:WouldBe said:
First, you make an observation that does not seem to fit current scientific knowledge, and then, and if the contradiction is significant, you delve on the real truth behind it to try to understand what is happening with that “new” or “strange” phenomenon.
If the contradiction is not significant, you forget about it and spend your time with something different.
qbeac said:
Nope. You make a hypothesis and construct a scientifically valid experiment for this. The experiment should be repeatable and scientifically valid. This should then be looked at critically by your peers.... Your experiment is invalid due to the point I've specified...
Hi jaed, no, "someone" in "a Astral Projection website" no, we are talking about MILLIONS of people in the world who claim they have had similar experiences, and many of them give "verifiable evidence" about their experiences. Let me give you just one example:jæd said:In other words : You haven't thought this through. Go back and refine your potential experiment and come back when its water-tight.
Someone on a Astral Projection website has shown they can project, astrally. No, really...?
What Emergency Department Staff Need to Know About Near-Death Experiences
Debbie James. Topics in Emergency Medicine.
Jan-Mar 2004.Vol.26, Iss. 1; pg. 29, 6 pgs
http://www.nursingcenter.com/library/JournalArticle.asp?Article_ID=493684
SAMPLE:
Caring for patients in the emergency department is more challenging today than at any time in the past. Healthcare providers must stay abreast of constant changes in technology and therapy, as well as new developments in resuscitation. They must also possess strong interpersonal skills to help them work with different family dynamics and crisis situations. But there is MORE! Researchers report that 1 in 3 patients who encounter a close brush with death will have a near-death experience (NDE). This article will provide the reader with a foundation of knowledge regarding the NDE which will promote the establishment of a caring environment and encourage disclosure. A review of the literature will reflect the most current research in this area. Factors that influence disclosure and nondisclosure will be included. This article concludes with suggested interventions for care of the emergency department patient who has had an NDE.
Caring for patients in the emergency department is more challenging today than at any time in the past. Healthcare providers must stay abreast of constant changes in technology and therapy, as well as new developments in resuscitation. They must also possess strong interpersonal skills to help them work with different family dynamics and crisis situations. But there is MORE! Researchers report that 1 in 3 patients who encounter a close brush with death will have a near-death experience (NDE). This article will provide the reader with a foundation of knowledge regarding the NDE which will promote the establishment of a caring environment and encourage disclosure. A review of the literature will reflect the most current research in this area. Factors that influence disclosure and nondisclosure will be included. This article concludes with suggested interventions for care of the emergency department patient who has had an NDE.
So, even if these experiences were only imaginary (a product of the mind), they would still be of interest for Human Science.
Now the big question is this one:
Are these experiences real or imaginary?
Well, let's apply the "Agnostic Method" and try to find out.
I totally agree with what you say:jæd said:
"You make a hypothesis and construct a scientifically valid experiment for this. The experiment should be repeatable and scientifically valid. This should then be looked at critically by your peers."
We are proposing an experiment which can follow all the guarantees of the Scientific Method. We are not talking about nothing less than that.
WouldBe
Dislicksick
jæd said:
And as I previously mentioned a lot of drugs get onto the market with nothing more that statistical analysis to proove they work which is mathematical proof not scientific.
Current thinking says you need 11 dimentions to explain the universe.
What forces if any exist in these other dimentions? How do they interact with each other and the forces in the first 4 dimentions? How can we scientifically measure these forces / interactions?
As far as I'm aware we can't scientifically measure them yet as we don't know what they are. The only thing we can do is observe, record and statistically analyse. Then and only then can we start trying to find the reason why.
Hi jaed, you won’t be “burned” today, but will somebody want “to burn” today the ones who try to do such an experiment?jæd said:
Besides, many scientists in the Spanish Science forum (www.100cia.com) think the experiment is valid. And so do I. Check this link:
http://www.100cia.com/opinion/foros/showthread.php?t=4290
qbeac.
Hi jaed, there are lots of good scientists doing research on this issue nowadays. For instance, let me give a few very interesting articles:
- Dr. Pim van Lommel’s The Lancet study 2001 about NDEs (complete text): http://profezie3m.altervista.org/archivio/TheLancet_NDE.htm
- Dr. Pim van Lommel. The Lancet HOME web site (this is the same article as above, but in the original web site of The Lancet, but you would have to register and I don’t know if also pay for the article?): http://www.thelancet.com/search/search.isa
- Dr. Pim van Lommel. Reply to Shermer (Please, read this article CAREFULLY): http://www.skepticalinvestigations.org/whoswho/vanLommel.htm
Also good: This is an interview with Dr. Bruce Greyson about an experiment he is undertaking in the operating rooms of the Hospital of the University of Virginia:
http://readthehook.com/stories/2004/09/08/facetimeDrNeardeathGreyson.html
Other VERY good article about human consciousness:
- Roger Penrose and Stuart Hameroff, "Orch OR" Model for Consciousness”. http://www.quantumconsciousness.org/penrose-hameroff/orchOR.html
- Hameroff’s complet web site is REALLY interesting:
http://www.quantumconsciousness.org
- Dr. Pim van Lommel’s The Lancet study 2001 about NDEs (complete text): http://profezie3m.altervista.org/archivio/TheLancet_NDE.htm
- Dr. Pim van Lommel. The Lancet HOME web site (this is the same article as above, but in the original web site of The Lancet, but you would have to register and I don’t know if also pay for the article?): http://www.thelancet.com/search/search.isa
- Dr. Pim van Lommel. Reply to Shermer (Please, read this article CAREFULLY): http://www.skepticalinvestigations.org/whoswho/vanLommel.htm
Also good: This is an interview with Dr. Bruce Greyson about an experiment he is undertaking in the operating rooms of the Hospital of the University of Virginia:
http://readthehook.com/stories/2004/09/08/facetimeDrNeardeathGreyson.html
Other VERY good article about human consciousness:
- Roger Penrose and Stuart Hameroff, "Orch OR" Model for Consciousness”. http://www.quantumconsciousness.org/penrose-hameroff/orchOR.html
- Hameroff’s complet web site is REALLY interesting:
http://www.quantumconsciousness.org
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