Are Astral Travels real or imaginary experiences?

[Sid's Snake]

I fully accept that the mind can hallucinate, that the experiences of those who claim to astral travel are real. However, it is very important that we nail down an answer to the poll question - are they 'real'? That is, can information about the material worl be obtained through them that could not otherwise be obtained. I would like to see this sort of proof.

But why would experiences that do not, in the first instance, anyhow, seem to relate to the "material world" give you "information about the material world."

You seem to be using the wrong conceptual tool for what you're trying to understand.

Like using the thing on a Swiss Army Knife for getting out the stones in horses hoofs, to open a tin of beans.

 

[xes]

I'll do it!!

*goes into trance*


You wrote "It's all a load of bollocks"

Did I get it right?


I've not read the thread,no time,work n all that,but i once saw a programe where some army base uses astral travel to spy on other bases. Aparently they had some good results.

 

[Crispy]

Sorry, I was under the impression that out of body experiences literally allowed the person to view his own body etc. from above ansd so on.

As for traveling to other realms entirely, well there will never be any amount of proof, as the experience is entirely internal to the person doing the travelling. It doesn't make any difference if it's all imaginary or it's all real. Unless, that is, two people can meet, or exchange information via these realms.

 

[Sid's Snake]

Sorry, I was under the impression that out of body experiences literally allowed the person to view his own body etc. from above ansd so on.

As for traveling to other realms entirely, well there will never be any amount of proof, as the experience is entirely internal to the person doing the travelling. It doesn't make any difference if it's all imaginary or it's all real. Unless, that is, two people can meet, or exchange information via these realms.

I think it depends on what you mean by "literally."

Some might say you are using the word in a sense that you and I recognise because we share a common W.European culture of, at most, 500 years pedigree...

With Astral Flight you are talking about a phenomenon that is far older and widespread globally than we can comprehensively tackle.

If you took a Late Paleolithic hunter or a San bushman etc into our homes and tried to tell him his culture wasn't literal, we might have problems explaining how the abstractions - internet, tv, most work - that constitute our daily lives are more "literal."

 

[Sid's Snake]

For example:

A Scan machine - one of those whole body scan machines - allows you to view a body from above.

It just gives different information.

 

[Crispy]

Ok, let me take the adjectives out of my question

Is it claimed that astral projection or out-of-body experiences allow the consciousness to percieve material things that the body of said consciousness would not normlly be able to percive?

 

[Sid's Snake]

Ok, let me take the adjectives out of my question

Is it claimed that astral projection or out-of-body experiences allow the consciousness to percieve material things that the body of said consciousness would not normlly be able to percive?

Well, I have to repeat this, I don't think it's a "material" experience - in the sense you and I understand the word - so I can't see how it could see "material things?"

However, various cultures seem to believe in its efficacy.

Just as a Scan Tube can take a viewer outside the body and "report" on malfunctioning organs, AP seems to be able to take the tribe, the social collective, out of itself - give it a more comprehensible picture of itself, in both - what we call "material and spiritual" - manifestations. And, like the Whole Body Scan, allow for a healing of the social body.

Seeing as social organisms are notoriously unable to perceive their own sickness, shamanistic AP seems to have provided a decent enough method for much of human culture throughout history.

Whether it brings the rain is another story.

 

[Crispy]

Fair enough then. All things spiritual and/or mystical have tied together cultures for as long as there have been humans. Just as long as science and mysticism stay in their boxes, I'm happy. It's when people try and join the two that we run into problems

 

[Sid's Snake]

Fair enough then. All things spiritual and/or mystical have tied together cultures for as long as there have been humans. Just as long as science and mysticism stay in their boxes, I'm happy. It's when people try and join the two that we run into problems

Well, quantum physics keeps coming up with multidimensions and interchangability of waves and particles; and, messing with our heads, generally.

I suggest beating a speedy retreat to the 18th century

 

[editor]

I've not read the thread,no time,work n all that,but i once saw a programe where some army base uses astral travel to spy on other bases. Aparently they had some good results.

Sure you didn't dream that?

 

[Crispy]

Well, quantum physics keeps coming up with multidimensions and interchangability of waves and particles; and, messing with our heads, generally.

I suggest beating a speedy retreat to the 18th century

Ah yes. QM is weird, but its weirdness is well-defined. By suggesting that the strange mathematical constructs that physicists use to explain the cosmos can some how be related to the strange dimsenions that the mind finds itself in under the influence of hallucinogens or meditation, you are most definitely saying that there is a material component to such experiences. Therefore, we should be able to seek out and define a material mechanism for their existence.

Simply making a rather generalisd link between the higher dimensions postulated by advanced physics and the weird version of reality experienced during a shamanistic ritual is a mistake. If you're going to use the words and ideas of science, make sure you understand preciscely what they mean (unfortunately this is very tricky without a very advanced understanding of the maths)

 

[Sid's Snake]

Ah yes. QM is weird, but its weirdness is well-defined. By suggesting that the strange mathematical constructs that physicists use to explain the cosmos can some how be related to the strange dimsenions that the mind finds itself in under the influence of hallucinogens or meditation, you are most definitely saying that there is a material component to such experiences. Therefore, we should be able to seek out and define a material mechanism for their existence.

Simply making a rather generalisd link between the higher dimensions postulated by advanced physics and the weird version of reality experienced during a shamanistic ritual is a mistake. If you're going to use the words and ideas of science, make sure you understand preciscely what they mean (unfortunately this is very tricky without a very advanced understanding of the maths)

"If you going to use the words and ideas of science, make sure you know precisely what they mean."

I don't know, but it's sentences like this that are reminisicent of an Elder of the Priory of Zion speaking out from behind a cowl; its a kind of interdiction more reminiscient of the 16th century Catholic church than "shared spirit of disinterested inquiry."

 

[Crispy]

I can see how it seems like scientists have mysterious knowledge and speak from ivory towers, but the truth of the matter is that anybody can learn these things for themselves, and perform the experiments and get the same results as everybody else. This is how scientists have come to be able to understand the mechanisms and relationships that govern QM.

It's perfectly possible to come up with a vague theory of quantum mechanics, with all the concepts in the right place etc. But without the maths and the experiments it is nothing more than a nice idea. I'm all for a spirit of inquiry. But doing so in a misdirected way will not lead you to the truth.

It is this sort of general understanding, yet specific ignorance, that leads to people trying to invent perpetual motion machines etc. If you're going to try and build one, you should first know the reasons why previous attempts have failed. Likewise, if you're going to invoke the concepts of QM, then you must use the maths and the laws of QM. "It seems to me" is not a scientific statement, if you see what I mean.

 

[Sid's Snake]

Ah yes. QM is weird, but its weirdness is well-defined. By suggesting that the strange mathematical constructs that physicists use to explain the cosmos can some how be related to the strange dimsenions that the mind finds itself in under the influence of hallucinogens or meditation, you are most definitely saying that there is a material component to such experiences. Therefore, we should be able to seek out and define a material mechanism for their existence.
)

I wasn't anything of the sort:D

I was responding to your presumably light hearted suggestion that science and mysticism "go back into their boxes." Ces't tout.

I'm not a scientist and so can't argue science. This is at times a disadvantage, though hardly a crippling disability - at times its an advantage, I feel.

Quatum Theory informs and feeds the modern mind in exactly the same way as Newtonian science did. When you say "weirdness is well-defined" it seems to me you are playing with words to a certain extent. You're saying the "weirdness" is there and the definition is there, science is just working towards a time ( and its always a future time ) where the 2 will meet and reconcile.

Now, there may very well be a Theory of Everything out there to be had and we just have to wait. But until then you just have the "weirdness" and, to most observers outside the Priory of Zion, a shifting and ever more intriguing paradigm.

 

[Crispy]

Ah I getcha now

It's very tricky indeed to transfer the concepts of science into the spiritual/mystical world - but you're right, this has always been done. After all, metaphor is one of the strongest tools in the box for understaning the mind.

It's just the people (not you) who get a surface understanding of QM (or other mysterious scientific fields) and then immediately go on to say "This validates my telepathy theory!" without really explaining anything, who really Get My Goat

 

[ska invita]

I've not read the thread,no time,work n all that,but i once saw a programe where some army base uses astral travel to spy on other bases. Aparently they had some good results.

Sure you didn't dream that?

Yes - its called remote viewing, and it has been uncovered on tv and in books (such as "The Psychic battlefield") that the CIA has departments dealing with psychic applications of warfare.

Remote viewing allows the viewer to see inside enemy instillations, positions, etc.,

Funding for the department certainly existed at different times (through freedom of information attained records), although it seems the plug has been pulled.

There was another show called something like "the man who killed goats" (with his mind) on channel 4 a while back - that was pretty bullshit (they couldnt do it - even in the show), but was part of the same CIA department as the remote viewing.

So all we can say for certain is that there were military trained psychics, but what kind of results they had is unknown, apart from a few witnesses who say they did have some good results - but this is not sufficiently or scientificaly proven. However the department ran for a fair few years, sugegsting some good results...

 

[ska invita]

Could someone (scientific) awnser my question about brainwaves?

I wonder if there is a parallel that can be made between the brain and other forms of wave generators - lets think of a CB short wave radio.

In having a conversation with someone a couple of miles away you are, in terms of scienctific materialism, "travelling", or at least your voice-waves are travelling across space through a wave generating medium.

Brainwaves, if I remember rightly from another thread, do not travel any great distance at all - only tiny distances within the brain - is that right?

However materialist science has a problem defining consciousness on physical space - although I have read a physicist who claims it is a loose field of something or other (cant remember what!).

Anyhow, as someone who has had profound telepathic experiences across hundereds of miles, I've only been able to rationalise the experience by thinking that possibly some form of brainwave that travels across space exists - please let me know if mainstream science has definitely ruled that out - i'd like to hear the how's and why's.

For the sake of argument, lets say that it is possible to emit a brainwave, and perhaps couple this with quantum phenomenon discussed in the Alain ASpect thread, then just possibly there is some way in which "astral travelling" is possible in terms of physical space/relay of information.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

"Brainwaves" are measurements of patterns of electrical activity within the brain. You can't have brainwaves outside of a brain because there aren't any neurons outside of a brain to generate this electrical activity. Measuring brainwaves is one particular way of trying to look at what's going on in a brain; brainwaves aren't anything in themselves.

 

[Sid's Snake]

Thought I'd post up this:

" ....it is worth noting that Descartes said he derived his ambition of designing a new philosophical and scientific system not from rational, lucid, thought but from a series of dreams...On the one hand, he developed philosophical and scientific theories that were rooted in rigid mathematics and the material and scientific world. On the other, his system was posited on the existence of a divine, benevolent, Creator. Out of this contradiction grew his well known "Cartesian dualism" that proposes the existence of two radically different kinds of substance: material substance ( rocks, trees, animals and the human body ) and thinking substance ( the human mind, thoughts, desires ) . From this duality arises a notion that the self. ( consciousness ) is something non-material, rather as a puppeteer manipulates a puppet. The English philosopher Gilbert Ryle summed up this in the famous phrase "Ghost in the Machine."

Descartes idea persists in what is now called attributive dualism, the doctrine that psychological phenomena cannot be reduced to a physical foundation. Whilst there is some sense in the kind of opposition to a recductionist explanation of the mind, I believe any persusasive explanation must refer to the form and functioning of the brain, the matter of the mind. The ghost hidden in the machine is a cognitive illusion created by the electro-chemical functioning of the brain."

The Mind In the Cave: Consciousness and the Origins of Art.

Quite apart from the fact Descartes "dreamed" up the system that serves much of the basis of the contemporary Western mind; much like a Southern African San shaman "dreams" the cures necessary for his tribe; I think what Lewis-Williams ( who Im quoting ) is saying is very interesting here. Not just because its critical of Cartianism but because it segues with those scientists looking for a "theory of consciousness" and doing so by studying the electro chemical functioning of the brain.

If the ( human ) brain seems to produce "exalted states" of a nature that appears to be universal ( the zig zaggy patterns of much Cave Art, produced 35,000 years ago, seem very similar to exactly the same patterns reported by subjects under laboratory conditions under the influence of psychotropic drugs and in exalted states...)

What this guy seems to me to be saying is that if these patterns of the human mind exist within the brain itself they represent a materiality of sorts, the materality of the functioning human brain, a materiality of consciousness.

If you accept this there is no reason why - if they are structural and universalm -they should not and potentiality might become an object of study every bit as valid as the material, exterior world that supposedly exists "outside" the Cartesian mind.

 

[WouldBe]

"Brainwaves" are measurements of patterns of electrical activity within the brain. You can't have brainwaves outside of a brain because there aren't any neurons outside of a brain to generate this electrical activity. Measuring brainwaves is one particular way of trying to look at what's going on in a brain; brainwaves aren't anything in themselves.

All electrical activity causes EM fields which can (with appropriate equipment) be picked up without a direct connection.

 

[Crispy]

All electrical activity causes EM fields which can (with appropriate equipment) be picked up without a direct connection.

Indeed. Sharks (and many other animals) have sensory organs that can detect the electrical activity of their prey. However, humans lack such organs, as far as we know. Plus the range isn't very long.

 

[WouldBe]

Indeed. Sharks (and many other animals) have sensory organs that can detect the electrical activity of their prey. However, humans lack such organs, as far as we know. Plus the range isn't very long.

A current flowing in a wire causes an EM field. This can then be picked up by a similar wire. You also get self induction in coils.

E2A: A loudspeaker can be used as a microphone.

Why do you need a 'separate' organ to detect the signal?

 

[Crispy]

For the same reason you can't see with your ears

Sharks have specially developed sensory organs that can pick up the electric fields produced by other living things. We don't have such organs. Bear in mind that transmitting information over such a link would be very tricky indeed. It would certainly require a large dedicated area of the brain, such as we have identified for hearing and sight. We have not yet discovered any such structures for detecting and interpreting electric fields. Very, very few mammals have them (the monotremes - platypus & echidna are the only living species)

EDIT: electric, not magnetic fields

Therefore, due to the complete lack of observed electrosensitivity in the rest of the mammal kingdom, especially in primates, leads me to assume fairly safely that humans do not have this sensory capability.

 

[gentlegreen]

All electrical activity causes EM fields which can (with appropriate equipment) be picked up without a direct connection.

Albeit in the case of "brainwaves", the frequencies are in the order of a few hertz and the amplitude in the order of microvolts at the skin surface so even direct detection with saline-wetted electrodes runs into noise problems.

Sharks are detecting much larger signals from muscle contractions - plus they are under water rather than air.
.

 

[TeeJay]

You're an idiot, never post in this forum again.

BtL - Although I have this idiot on ignore, whenever someone quotes his posts in full I end up seeing this crap.

 

[WouldBe]

For the same reason you can't see with your ears

What do ears have to do with sensing light?

Therefore, due to the complete lack of observed electrosensitivity in the rest of the mammal kingdom, especially in primates, leads me to assume fairly safely that humans do not have this sensory capability.

How much research has been done into this?

 

[Crispy]

Not my specialistation I'm afraid. However, I do know that it's a pretty rare capability and is only ever used underwater (where the salty water is good at conducting the signals)

And as gentle green says, they detect muscular pulses, not brainwaves, which are orders of magnitudes weaker.

 

[Azrael23]

Let's put it to the test.

I'll write something in a book and I'll cordially invite any passing astral travellers to tell me what I wrote.

Any takers?

Or you could just try it yourself.

 

[snorbury]

Astral travel is not real, it's natural, there's a difference. How do salmon return to their spawning grounds and birds turn in unison on the wing? Astral travel, innit

 

[Crispy]

Dunno about the salmon, but birds turning together is such a simple behaviour computers can simulate it. The rules are:

1. Don't turn too tightly
2. Follow the closest bird you can see
3. Don't get too close

and you'll get perfect swarming behaviour. no need for telepathy or 'leaders' - in the way that ripples of electricity across your heart are both created by and control its pulsing, the swarming of birds is emergent from its components - no need for telepathy or anything.