Apple's iPhone <eta: and other smartphones?> tracks users every movement

[editor]

If you were actually being investigated by the authorities, they'd have all this information - either from the telco or more likely from your bank.

But they would need a court order to gain access to that information. Apple's tracking file is available to absolutely ANYONE with momentary access to your phone or any of the computers you sync to.

There's already talk of US cops helping themselves to this info, no court order needed. Doesn't that concern you?

 

[mauvais]

Latitude keeps logs. Admittedly I had to opt in. My Latitude dashboard tells me where I was in December, what flights I've taken, and how often I'm at work/home.

 

[editor]

Latitude keeps logs. Admittedly I had to opt in. My Latitude dashboard tells me where I was in December, what flights I've taken, and how often I'm at work/home.

And that is the HUGE, MASSIVE difference. It was your choice and it's protected.

Will Google publicly commit to requiring a wiretap order before it will help law enforcement agents track a Latitude user? It’s probably fair to say that we pestered them on this point for several weeks.

Well, we‘ve now gotten word back from Google, and the news is good: Google has confirmed that its policy will be to require a wiretap order before tracking a Latitude user’s location for law enforcement.

http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2009/03/exclusive-google-takes-stand-location-privacy-alon

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Bear in mind also that mobile devices are a central terrain for various debates about universal identity credentials, see e.g. this discussion from Ross Anderson.

If the world embraces the Apple vision of your mobile phone becoming your universal authentication device|so that your phone contains half-a dozen credit cards, a couple of gift cards, a dozen coupons and vouchers, your AA card, your student card and your driving license, how will we manage all this?

http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rja14/Papers/sefa-pr11.pdf

So questions of trust and accountability around the way key vendors such as Apple and Google treat your data are pretty central to the broader privacy/security debates.

 

[editor]

So questions of trust and accountability around the way key vendors such as Apple and Google treat your data are pretty central to the broader privacy/security debates.

Indeed and that is why this - which is no doubt one of the first of many such debates - is not something to be brushed under the carpet or dismissed, whether it's Google, Apple or whoever under the spotlight.

 

[Bungle73]

So will that tell them where your work, where you like to go walking, where you drink or (as in the case of my female Australian friend) the exact location of your gym? Oh, and unlike Apple's compulsory tracking, you can elect not to be in the phone book.

As I said, what use would that be to anyone?

 

[editor]

As I said, what use would that be to anyone?

Why do you think privacy laws exist? Why do you think so many commentators are saying that this tracking is a bad thing? Any idea at all?

 

[mauvais]

But they would need a court order to gain access to that information. Apple's tracking file is available to absolutely ANYONE with momentary access to your phone or any of the computers you sync to.

There's already talk of US cops helping themselves to this info, no court order needed. Doesn't that concern you?

Not particularly. I would imagine it's illegal or unlawful to search my phone without permission, if they did recover anything it would be circumstantial, and there are so many other ways to achieve the same goal, whatever that may be. If someone has access to my phone or computer then I am already compromised in all manner of ways.

 

[editor]

Not particularly. I would imagine it's illegal or unlawful to search my phone without permission, if they did recover anything it would be circumstantial, and there are so many other ways to achieve the same goal, whatever that may be. If someone has access to my phone or computer then I am already compromised in all manner of ways.

Oh, that's alright then.

 

[mauvais]

If you have my phone, you have access to my email (thus address in short order), Facebook (thus most of my friends), the texts I've sent, calls I've made, pretty much everything. That and the possibility to bug it. Being able to retrieve a cached store of cell sites I've encountered is neither here nor there at this point.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

Bear in mind also that mobile devices are a central terrain for various debates about universal identity credentials, see e.g. this discussion from Ross Anderson.



http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rja14/Papers/sefa-pr11.pdf

So questions of trust and accountability around the way key vendors such as Apple and Google treat your data are pretty central to the broader privacy/security debates.

Indeed.

 

[Bungle73]

Why do you think privacy laws exist? Why do you think so many commentators are saying that this tracking is a bad thing? Any idea at all?

If this info were being broadcast around the internet they'd have a point, but it isn't. This info is being stored on devices that only you have access to. As has been said by others there's probably far more sensitive info on your phone than that at some point point in time you visited Milton Keynes.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

If this info were being broadcast around the internet they'd have a point, but it isn't. This info is being stored on devices that only you have access to. As has been said by others there's probably far more sensitive info on your phone than that at some point point in time you visited Milton Keynes.

Didn't the guardian link above mention that Google upload this info every few hours? It's hardly just being left on our devices. And besides, even it was what's to stop Google or Apple making use of that data at a later date?

 

[Bungle73]

Didn't the guardian link above mention that Google upload this info every few hours? It's hardly just being left on our devices. And besides, even it was what's to stop Google or Apple making use of that data at a later date?

I was talking about the Apple issue, which editor seems to want to concentrate on...

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Didn't the guardian link above mention that Google upload this info every few hours? It's hardly just being left on our devices. And besides, even it was what's to stop Google or Apple making use of that data at a later date?

One of the issues here is data mining. Already a huge issue, particularly with Google given their unique market position. See e.g. the following Reg story about their decade-long fight with the EU over data retention

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/0...still_do_not_comply_with_data_retention_laws/

 

[editor]

If this info were being broadcast around the internet they'd have a point, but it isn't. This info is being stored on devices that only you have access to. As has been said by others there's probably far more sensitive info on your phone than that at some point point in time you visited Milton Keynes.

So it's all a silly fuss about nothing and users are just being sillly billys when they object to a secret file containing their whereabouts being stored on their phones, laptops and home computers, yes?

In fact, if there was a "turn off this tracking now" button on your phone, you wouldn't even bother using it because there's not the slightest hint of any privacy concerns contained in the file at all. Is that about right?

 

[Bungle73]

So it's all a silly fuss about nothing and users are just being sillly billys when they object to a secret file containing their whereabouts being stored on their phones, laptops and home computers, yes?

In fact, if there was a "turn off this tracking now" button on your phone, you wouldn't even bother using it because there's not the slightest hint of any privacy concerns contained in the file at all. Is that about right?

That's about the sum of it, yeah.

 

[editor]

That's about the sum of it, yeah.

Thank fuck there's people who do give a shit about privacy and maintain a healthy distrust of corporations and the police. Still, enjoy your iBubble.

 

[magneze]

This is the attitude that corporations such as Google, Facebook and Apple have been going for. Chip, chip, chip away until few people think or care about privacy. If you're not looking for it or not worried about it, suddenly it's gone too far but it's too late. Let's face it Google is more open because they are well aware that the full force of government is currently pointed at them. Apple will suddenly become more responsible as a result of this. However, no corporation will voluntarily protect anyone's privacy at the expense of shareholder value. It's only when that value is jeopardized (as of now, with Apple) that something will get done.

Fucked up. But true.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

In fact they have a *duty* to their shareholders to violate and otherwise compromise your privacy wherever it's profitable to do so, until they've lost all the possible legal appeals against any attempts to stop them doing so or there is a such a clear case that the reputation damage to their brand outweighs the potential profits that no shareholder could conceivably argue in court that the benefits outweighed the cost (e.g. data mining the personal info of kids and selling it to pedos or something totally henious like that)

 

[Kid_Eternity]

One of the issues here is data mining. Already a huge issue, particularly with Google given their unique market position. See e.g. the following Reg story about their decade-long fight with the EU over data retention

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/0...still_do_not_comply_with_data_retention_laws/

Yep, this reminds me of the controversy over them and wifi routers with their mapping operation too.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

This is the attitude that corporations such as Google, Facebook and Apple have been going for. Chip, chip, chip away until few people think or care about privacy. If you're not looking for it or not worried about it, suddenly it's gone too far but it's too late. Let's face it Google is more open because they are well aware that the full force of government is currently pointed at them. Apple will suddenly become more responsible as a result of this. However, no corporation will voluntarily protect anyone's privacy at the expense of shareholder value. It's only when that value is jeopardized (as of now, with Apple) that something will get done.

Fucked up. But true.

Yup. This is the point. It's not about format wars or fanbois it's about citizens and our rights in the face of huge corporations attempting to shape our behaviour to suit their profit margins.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Yeah, the big issue with Google vs say Apple is the amount of other information they can potentially tie this sort of stuff into when data-mining. Thanks to iTunes Apple have a lot of info on punters too, but nothing comparable on what Google have if they can tie your search history into your gmail account and both of those to your phone.

 

[editor]

Updates!

Steve Jobs has apparently issued another of his huffy responses to a user:

Q: Steve,

Could you please explain the necessity of the passive location-tracking tool embedded in my iPhone? It's kind of unnerving knowing that my exact location is being recorded at all times. Maybe you could shed some light on this for me before I switch to a Droid. They don't track me.

A: Oh yes they do. We don't track anyone. The info circulating around is false.

Sent from my iPhone
http://www.macrumors.com/2011/04/25/steve-jobs-on-ios-location-issue-we-dont-track-anyone/

And the inevitable US court case arrives!

Apple Inc. (AAPL) was sued for alleged privacy invasion and computer fraud by two customers who claim the company is secretly recording and storing the location and movement of iPhone and iPad users, according to a federal complaint filed today in Tampa, Florida.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-...r-location-data-storage-on-iphones-ipads.html

Elsewhere, it's been reported that government bodies in several countries including South Korea, France and Germany are investigating Apple’s location-tracking practices.

More here: http://news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-20057175-37.html

 

[Obnoxiousness]

I'm switching off my phone and leaving it in a drawer.

Just need a pocket of change and the location of any local telephone boxes, if they still exist!

 

[Winot]

Just need a pocket of change and the location of any local telephone boxes, if they still exist!

I doubt that there's an app for that.

 

[veracity]

Yep, this reminds me of the controversy over them and wifi routers with their mapping operation too.

And now it turns out you can query the Google database and see the exact location of your wifi router on the map. http://samy.pl/androidmap/ Found this link via the Guardian site yesterday. Considering that the photo Google has of my house on Google Maps is at least 18 months old, I was a little alarmed to see that they've been past my house and logged my router's MAC address in the last 8 months since I moved in.

 

[editor]

And now it turns out you can query the Google database and see the exact location of your wifi router on the map. http://samy.pl/androidmap/ Found this link via the Guardian site yesterday. Considering that the photo Google has of my house on Google Maps is at least 18 months old, I was a little alarmed to see that they've been past my house and logged my router's MAC address in the last 8 months since I moved in.

I'm honestly trying to think why I should find this alarming. I don't even know my Mac address, but I know that my router is broadcasting its approximate location to anyone who walks past my block. It's what wi-fi is supposed to do, so I'm struggling to see how it compromises my privacy in any way.

 

[editor]

OK, here's how to find your MAC address. http://www.smallbusinesscomputing.c...hats-a-MAC-Address-and-How-Do-You-Find-It.htm
And here's my result|:

Google has not exposed anything for 00:21:9B:2.........

 

[veracity]

I'm honestly trying to think why I should find this alarming. I don't even know my Mac address, but I know that my router is broadcasting its approximate location to anyone who walks past my block. It's what wi-fi is supposed to do, so I'm struggling to see how it compromises my privacy in any way.

You're right in that anyone with a Wifi address can see if you are broadcasting your SSID, but how many people are going round compiling all this info in a database? The Guardian article suggests Google also using data from Android handsets " using them essentially as global wardriving machines" to compile this info - why?