Apple's iPhone <eta: and other smartphones?> tracks users every movement

[Kid_Eternity]

Ah. It's "misleading" is it? So you think that one of the richest corporations on the planet have no choice over where they decide to locate their business? LOL.

Google seem to have managed a different way of thinking:


http://blog.searchenginewatch.com/110421-144800

Perhaps we could have that debate on a thread about that topic rather than polluting this one with it?

 

[editor]

Unless you're in the habit of syncing your iPhone with random public PCs that is a much lesser issue than some people are making it out to be.

Let's try this again: given the choice, would you like your phone to automatically transfer over an easily accessible, detailed record of your timestamped movements to any machine you sync it with or not?

 

[editor]

Perhaps we could have that debate on a thread about that topic rather than polluting this one with it?

"Polluting".... I see what you're doing there!

Anyway, I'm done on this topic. I've never seen the reality distortion field in such full effect, so on that basis, there's very little to be gained in pursuing the point.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

Perhaps a mod can change the title of this thread to include Google's name along with Apple given recent news?

I think that's reasonable.

 

[editor]

I think that's reasonable.

Does Google store a searchable, non-deletable detailed file of all your movements on both Android phones and desktops then?

The thread title's just fine.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

Does Google store a searchable, non-deletable detailed file of all your movements on both Android phones and desktops then?

The title of this thread doesn't state that, it states the fact that Apple tracks it's users, the story is now that both Google and Apple do this so it's misleading to not have the title corrected to reflect that.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

"Polluting".... I see what you're doing there!

Anyway, I'm done on this topic. I've never seen the reality distortion field in such full effect, so on that basis, there's very little to be gained in pursuing the point.

Yeah have to say was a little proud of that.

 

[Bungle73]

Let's try this again: given the choice, would you like your phone to automatically transfer over an easily accessible, detailed record of your timestamped movements to any machine you sync it with or not?

If it's my personal PC why would I even care?

And it's not a "detailed record of my timestamped movements". It only records each location once, so its hardly detailing your every movement.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

Does Google store a searchable, non-deletable detailed file of all your movements on both Android phones and desktops then?

I don't know whether it does on desktops, I suppose that depends on how you sync and whether you take backups. You don't have to take backups after all, on either of them. It does store one on the phone, and it sends the info to Google all the time.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

The story is now Apple and Google, and people will be looking for info on both, in fact the Guardian headline may be a better one for this thread:

iPhones and Android phones building vast databases for Google and Apple
Italy, France and Germany to investigate smartphone tracking software amid privacy concerns

 

[editor]

I don't know whether it does on desktops, I suppose that depends on how you sync and whether you take backups.

Answer is: it doesn't so this thread title change is fucking ridiculous.

This thread is about the iPhone's recently documented dodginess and not vaguely, sort of similar things that Android may or may not be doing that's been brought up in the hope that it wont make Apple look so bad.

It's kind of pathetic, really. Start a new thread if you want to discuss Google's quite different issues.

 

[editor]

The story is now Apple and Google, and people will be looking for info on both, in fact the Guardian headline may be a better one for this thread:

iPhones and Android phones building vast databases for Google and Apple
Italy, France and Germany to investigate smartphone tracking software amid privacy concerns

And that link says:

Google's list is limited to the most recent 50 cell masts and 200 wi-fi networks, while Apple's list is retained for up to a year. Sources close to Apple have suggested the long-term retention may be an error which it will correct in a future software update.

Privacy advocates fear that although the data is anonymised, the Apple data is not encrypted and could be misused by law enforcement or others who wanted to capture information about someone's movements.

One security researcher, Alex Levinson of Katana Forensics, said on Thursday that US law enforcement had already made use of the location data recorded by the iPhone in investigations.

Relevant points highlighted, none of which are applicable to Android.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

Well take it up with the Guardian, US senators and a various European countries who disagree...the fact is that Google and Apple are tracking their users. This isn't about fanbois fighting over their favourite format, this is about our rights in the face of huge corporations who are attempting to profit from us.

 

[sunnysidedown]

is there a name for those people who are a complete opposite of an Apple fan boy?

 

[editor]

is there a name for those people who are a complete opposite of an Apple fan boy?

Normal people.

 

[elbows]

Its clearly a large issue that has been waiting to happen for some time, and affects numerous companies & systems.

The Apple example is especially bad & graphic due to the tools made available to look at the data, but the overall issue goes way beyond this and attempts to defend companies such as Google over this stuff are exceedingly misplaced.

 

[editor]

The Apple example is especially bad & graphic due to the tools made available to look at the data, but the overall issue goes way beyond this and attempts to defend companies such as Google over this stuff are exceedingly misplaced.

I'm not defending Google here at all - if I find out that they've been creating easily accessible files about my whereabouts on my desktop I'm going to very angry indeed - but what is happening is that Apple enthusiasts have either been making out that it's a lot of fuss over nothing or trying to divert the debate elsewhere.

If Google are up to similar - but not directly related - dodginess, then that's have a thread on that too, but I'm not happy having this thread - which relates directly to Apple's quite unique and specific dodgy goings on - suddenly being branched out for no good reason.

 

[Bungle73]

I'm not defending Google here at all - if I find out that they've been creating easily accessible files about my whereabouts on my desktop I'm going to very angry indeed - but what is happening is that Apple enthusiasts have either been making out that it's a lot of fuss over nothing or trying to divert the debate elsewhere.

That's because it is a fuss over nothing. The info is only on your own PC so what's the big deal?

If Google are up to similar - but not directly related - dodginess, then that's have a thread on that too, but I'm not happy having this thread - which relates directly to Apple's quite unique and specific dodgy goings on - suddenly being branched out.

Why do we need a separate thread when it's more or less the same issue?

 

[editor]

That's because it is a fuss over nothing. The info is only on your own PC so what's the big deal?


Why do we need a separate thread when it's more or less the same issue?

Android phones are not leaving a hidden, undeletable file containing all your movements across multiple phone upgrades and any computer you sync your phone to, and if you can't work out any reasons why having all this information in an easily accessible format might be problematic for a multitude of reasons, I rather despair.

Or, to put in another way: would you, by choice, elect to leave such detailed files on your phone and computers?

 

[editor]

Perhaps this new article on Wired makes it clearer:

Why you should care about the iPhone location-tracking issue
Having a data file with over a year's worth of your location information stored on your iPhone is a security risk.
So if a thief got his hands on your iPhone, he can figure out where you live and loot you there, too. Same goes for a hacker who gains remote access to the consolidated.db file.

But if a thief or hacker dug into an Android device, there isn't going to be much geodata saved on the smartphone to digitally stalk you. (There's plenty of other data on smartphones such as text messages, address books and so forth, but at least we have control over what data we store in this regard.)

Bottom line, this data shouldn't stick around on your iOS device, because it does nothing but put you at risk. And you should care about that, because this problem can be and should be fixed by Apple, and you should demand that.

The database makes a tempting target for law enforcement
If police wanted to, they could subpoena the iPhone's location database file when investigating a suspect. That file contains too much information for this to even be justified.

Imagine if you were suspected of a crime and police wanted to know where you were at 5 p.m. Thursday. They could subpoena your iPhone, dig into this file and, looking at the various data points, get a good idea of where you were at that time.

Sure, that sounds like it could be a useful practice for busting bad criminals, but what about all that other data? With that file police can not only find out where you were at 5 p.m. Thursday, but also that you see a therapist every Monday morning, or simply that you were somewhere that you'd want to keep to yourself -- private matters.

As tempting as it may be to say, "They're suspected for a crime, they deserve it," even suspects deserve privacy. They're suspects, after all, not criminals (yet). The fact that law enforcement can easily get more information than necessary is not a positive thing.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/TECH/mobile/04/25/iphone.tracking.wired/

 

[Bungle73]

Android phones are not leaving a hidden, undeletable file containing all your movements across multiple phone upgrades and any computer you sync your phone to, and if you can't work out any reasons why having all this information in an easily accessible format might be problematic for a multitude of reasons, I rather despair.

Or, to put in another way: would you, by choice, elect to leave such detailed files on your phone and computers?

No, Android phones are collecting info about your movements and sending it back to HQ. Far worse IMHO, but like always you're far more interested in bashing Apple.

I've said this before and I'll say it again, unless you're in the habit of syncing your iPhone with random public PCs why does it matter? This is your own PC and yours alone. I don't know about you but I'm not in the habit of letting random strangers have access to my PC.

Also it's not all your movements; it only records each location once, so if you visit somewhere multiple times it doesn't log that.

 

[editor]

It seems that the data keeps on being stored even if you turn off location services:

Apple Inc.'s iPhone is collecting and storing location information even when location services are turned off, according to a test conducted by The Wall Street Journal.

The location data appear to be collected using cellphone towers and Wi-Fi access points near a user's phone and don't appear to be transmitted back to Apple. Apple didn't immediately respond to a request for comment.

Still, the fact that the iPhone is collecting and storing location data—even when location services are turned off—is likely to renew questions about how well users are informed about the data being gathered by their cellphones. The fact that the iPhone stores months' worth of location data was disclosed by two researchers last week.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704123204576283580249161342.html

 

[Bungle73]

Perhaps this new article on Wired makes it clearer:

A load of sensationalist nonsense. How exactly is a thief or hacker going to determine where you live out of all the locations you might have visited? The second part is nonsense too seeing as, like I've already said, it only records each location once.

 

[Bungle73]

Also, even if some nefarious person could use this to find out where you live what use would that be to anyone? Someone could find out where you live by looking you up in the phone book, or looking at the electoral roll.

 

[editor]

A load of sensationalist nonsense. How exactly is a thief or hacker going to determine where you live out of all the locations you might have visited? The second part is nonsense too seeing as, like I've already said, it only records each location once.

There's seems to be ample evidence suggesting that your complacency might be a bit misplaced:

No, iPhone location tracking isn't harmless and here's why
Secret Apple database already being tapped by cops

Levinson also said iPhone location tracking has gone on much longer than indicated by Warden and Allan, who claimed it began with the introduction of Apple's iOS 4 in late June. In fact, said Levinson, earlier iPhones contained a hidden file called h-cells.plist that contained much of the same baseband radio locations that consolidated.db has now.

“Through my work with various law enforcement agencies, we've used h-cells.plist on devices older than iOS 4 to harvest geolocational evidence from iOS devices,” wrote Levinson, who is a lead engineer for Katana Forensics.

Based on Levinson's account, it's hard to put much credence in critics who cite bugs and a lack of geographic granularity to argue that the undisclosed tracking of iPhones and iPads is harmless or inconsequential to its millions of users. Inclusion of the database means that anyone who ever loses his device risks exposing potentially large amounts of information about where he was over months or years.

That could be devastating for people embroiled in messy lawsuits or those whose whereabouts are closely guarded secrets, such as volunteers who work with victims of abusive spouses.

Of course, none of this speculation would be necessary if Apple would come clean about exactly how the location tracking it built into its devices works and what precise information is collected. The company, in keeping with its Jobsian obsession with privacy, has yet to utter a peep despite widespread media coverage.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/04/22/apple_iphone_location_tracking_analysis/page2.html

 

[mauvais]

Android phones are not leaving a hidden, undeletable file containing all your movements across multiple phone upgrades and any computer you sync your phone to

No, that's what Google Latitude is for.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

That's because it is a fuss over nothing. The info is only on your own PC so what's the big deal?


Why do we need a separate thread when it's more or less the same issue?

We don't, it's about privacy and corporations collecting data on you. A mod has changed the thread title so this thread is good enough to discuss both Google and Apple's violation of privacy issues.

 

[editor]

Also, even if some nefarious person could use this to find out where you live what use would that be to anyone? Someone could find out where you live by looking you up in the phone book, or looking at the electoral roll.

So will that tell them where your work, where you like to go walking, where you drink or (as in the case of my female Australian friend) the exact location of your gym? Oh, and unlike Apple's compulsory tracking, you can elect not to be in the phone book.

 

[editor]

No, that's what Google Latitude is for.

Wow. That's a mighty big serving of FUD.

Unlike Apple's secret tracking, Latitude is opt-in and its user policy was, "created in consultation with the Electronic Frontier Foundation" and "puts Latitude on equal privacy footing with Loopt, a popular friend-finding service that predates Latitude. Both services now overwrite your previous location with your new location, and don’t keep logs."

The EFF’s Kevin Bankston applauded this stance in his post announcing Google’s decision:

We are incredibly happy that Google has taken this rare step, not only by making the right decision about the privacy of its users’ data, but by making that policy public. When it comes to government surveillance, the legal interface between law enforcement and your phone and internet service providers is a shadowy place, and it’s often unclear what types of data companies are willing to provide to the government based on what types of legal process.

http://www.wired.com/epicenter/2009/03/googles-latitud/

 

[mauvais]

If you were actually being investigated by the authorities, they'd have all this information - either from the telco or more likely from your bank.

If your phone fell into the hands of a criminal or some such - hello! they have your phone! - then there are so many vectors to choose from that you are in trouble aplenty.

Don't get me wrong: it's not ideal, it certainly shouldn't include fine grained timestamps, and it's great that people are uncovering this stuff - but in the end this isn't really a workable or novel privacy exploit.