Apple's iPhone <eta: and other smartphones?> tracks users every movement

[Bernie Gunther]

You appeared to be dismissing people's privacy concerns about Google Ed. Not obvious why, given that they were clearly legitimate concerns ...

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Not obvious what aspects of human nature changed over four years to make PI's analysis invalid.

If you think you have a specific argument, by all means produce it and let us scrutinise it, but until you do, I'm inclined to assume that human nature didn't change in any philosophically significant way since 2007.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

The original thread was titled "Apple's iPhone tasks users every movement and Android and others don't" (ono), which turned out to be incorrect because Android phones also track that information. The original thread starter asked that the title be changed to reflect that. In fact I didn't even go as far as requested and just removed the "and..." part and added a questioning reference to other models, given that recent publicity would mean that people would be looking for "iPhone tracking" threads.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

yeah but it's pretty obvious apple's main problem vs google was shit coding, they forgot to delete the cache before copying it to the mothership ...

 

[Kid_Eternity]

Is anyone saying any different?

What's difficult is that this thread starting discussing one particular thing and was then - against my wishes -given a title change and broadened out to include far wider and at time more fuzzy concerns.

And as such it's become rather difficult to keep up, especially when I'm being accused of thinking that Google are all "fluffy and harmless" just because I didn't agree that the one specific scenario was a big enough personal risk to get me up in arms (not surprising, seeing as I'm not even in that database and I remain unconvinced of its PI/ex-partner attracting problems) .

Well if you don't like threads being changed by other mods without your permission I'd suggest you take it up with them. You're being overtly aggressive and displaying some disheartening levels of complacency and disregard to the notion of privacy.

The story is about a citizens rights in the face of huge transnational corporations. You appear to have been fine with that view until Google was implicated again in relation to privacy. If you don't like this thread or if it's getting too much for you simply take a break from it, no one is going to hold against you if you did!

 

[editor]

You appeared to be dismissing people's privacy concerns about Google Ed. Not obvious why, given that they were clearly legitimate concerns ...

It's a bit pointless even trying to make sense of what you're on about.

I tried really hard with your gibberish about train tickets and Google routers and location-based discrimination but I'm afraid you just made no snese at all.

And seeing as it's clear that you're not even reading what I've written and are just trying to misrepresent me, there's really not much point in carrying on.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

<snip>And seeing as it's clear that you're not even reading what I've written and are just trying to misrepresent me, there's really not much point in carrying on.

The feeling is mutual, and it's your board, where I am a guest, so I guess I'll take this opinion elsewhere.

 

[editor]

The original thread was titled "Apple's iPhone tasks users every movement and Android and others don't" (ono), which turned out to be incorrect because Android phones also track that information.

That's simply not true. The original thread was about Apple's practice of storing easily read, unprotected files for up to a year on both the iPhone and on any computer it synced to. That is NOT the same as the Android tracking. There are NO unprotected files left on computers.

Android devices keep a record of the locations and unique IDs of the last 50 mobile masts that it has communicated with, and the last 200 Wi-Fi networks that it has "seen". These are overwritten, oldest first, when the relevant list is full. It is not yet known whether the lists are sent to Google. That differs from Apple, where the data is stored for up to a year.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2011/apr/21/android-phones-record-user-locations

 

[editor]

The feeling is mutual, and it's your board, where I am a guest, so I guess I'll take this opinion elsewhere.

I'm not stopping you saying what you like, so the comment about it being "my" board is both inaccurate and spurious and, I suspect, rather loaded.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Yeah but Google have much more info to cross-reference with, e.g. your search history, so they are the greater threat no matter how horrible Apple are (and I agree that their atttitude to privacy is just appalling whereas Google at least have the courtesy to try to lie to you)

 

[FridgeMagnet]

That's simply not true. The original thread was about Apple's practice of storing easily read, unprotected files for up to a year on both the iPhone and on any computer it synced to. That is NOT the same as the Android tracking. There are NO unprotected files left on computers.

"Apple's iPhone tracks users every movement". Android doesn't do exactly the same? Yes it does. You even posted that it does. Therefore the original thread title was incorrect. There is absolutely no tracking that iPhones do that Android phones don't. That was the thread title and that was why I amended it.

 

[editor]

The reason why this thread has fallen apart into such a stroppy mess is because people are now trying to argue about ten not-necessarily-related things at once, and the whenever you try and make a point about one thing, you'll get a question that involves something else that isn't necessarily-related, and of you donlt answer it then it's suggest that it's because you don't care about the issue. It's exasperating.

As I suggested a long time ago, this thread should have stuck with the clearly defined iPhone issue and separate ones started for the sorta-similar-but-clearly-not-the-same issues.

 

[editor]

There is absolutely no tracking that iPhones do that Android phones don't. That was the thread title and that was why I amended it.

And the easily searched time-stamped logs of up to a year installed onto users desktops without their knowledge? That was the big story and that's why just about every story about this was illustrated with a screen grab of that desktop data.

Android phones do not create such a file on desktops.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

The reason why this thread has fallen apart into such a stroppy mess is because people are now trying to argue about ten not-necessarily-related things at once, and the whenever you try and make a point about one thing, you'll get a question that involves something else that isn't necessarily-related, and of you donlt answer it then it's suggest that it's because you don't care about the issue. It's exasperating.

As I suggested a long time ago, this thread should have stuck with the clearly defined iPhone issue and separate ones started for the sorta-similar-but-clearly-not-the-same issues.

This thread hasn't fallen apart, it's only you that doesn't seem to be able to 'keep up'.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

"Apple's iPhone tracks users every movement". Android doesn't do exactly the same? Yes it does. You even posted that it does. Therefore the original thread title was incorrect. There is absolutely no tracking that iPhones do that Android phones don't. That was the thread title and that was why I amended it.

As far as I can tell ...

Apple are slightly sloppier about cache handling and hence more vulnerable to crimeware, but there is more crimeware being developed for Android and Google have far more data that they can do appalling and/or sinister things with.

Both firms are just breathtakingly, stunningly arrogant in their response to privacy concerns.

Whatever fanboi inclinations people might have, let's take the privacy concerns seriously here, because neither firm can stand the slightest scrutiny and trying to pretend that Google can 'cos you have more emotional antipathy to Apple is just silly.

 

[editor]

This thread hasn't fallen apart, it's only you that doesn't seem to be able to 'keep up'.

Perhaps you can explain the Google router/location discrimination/train tickets stuff then?

 

[FridgeMagnet]

And the easily searched time-stamped logs of up to a year installed onto users desktops without their knowledge? That was the big story and that's why just about every story about this was illustrated with a screen grab of that desktop data.

Android phones do not create such a file on desktops.

What does that have to do with the thread title? Was any of that in the thread title? No. Hence editing the thread title.

 

[editor]

What does that have to do with the thread title? Was any of that in the thread title? No. Hence editing the thread title.

The only story referred to in the opening post was: "iPhone keeps record of everywhere you go." It only mentioned Android in passing.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2011/apr/20/iphone-tracking-prompts-privacy-fears

Anyway I can't be arsed with this.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

As far as I can tell ...

Apple are slightly sloppier about cache handling and hence more vulnerable to crimeware, but there is more crimeware being developed for Android and Google have far more data that they can do appalling and/or sinister things with.

Both firms are just breathtakingly, stunningly arrogant in their response to privacy concerns.

Whatever fanboi inclinations people might have, let's take the privacy concerns seriously here, because neither firm can stand the slightest scrutiny and trying to pretend that Google can 'cos you have more emotional antipathy to Apple is just silly.

Good post.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

The only story referred to in the opening post was: "iPhone keeps record of everywhere you go." It only mentioned Android in passing.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2011/apr/20/iphone-tracking-prompts-privacy-fears

Anyway I can't be arsed with this.

Nothing to do with the thread title. The thing that was changed.

 

[magneze]

I see where you're coming from ed, but I think that the real issue is the tracking, rather than the unencrypted file. The Sony security breach is a good example of what can happen - imagine all the data that Apple and Google have. One breach and the criminals could be selling this data to the highest bidder. Sure, people can take precautions, but many don't either through laziness or, more likely IMO, through a lack of technical know-how

The worst possible outcome for all of this is that Apple stop keeping the unencrypted data file, but still keep tracking and Google still keep their tracking too. Unfortunately, I believe that this outcome is probably the most likely scenario.

 

[magneze]

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/04/27/windows_phone_location_tracking/

Microsoft do it too, with a unique ID to boot.

 

[mauvais]

Does everyone understand the point of this, i.e. why it's collected?

 

[Crispy]

Does everyone understand the point of this, i.e. why it's collected?

To improve location services by correlating wifi addresses, 3G cells and GPS data?

 

[mauvais]

Yeah - fine grained location services without the need for GPS. Google did this at fairly high expense using the Street View cars - Skyhook did something similar. Apple & MS are out in the cold in this regard so they are having their customers do it for them for free. It's not tracking per se although it raises plenty of issues.

I ask because very few reports explain this.

 

[Crispy]

http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2011/04/27location_qa.html

Some clarifications

 

[Kid_Eternity]

Yep that's just breaking over the AP now...be interesting to see how this plays. Sony's huge breach of info due to hackers has added another dimension to the issue of privacy and user info that Google, Apple, Microsoft keep...

 

[Kid_Eternity]

This bit stood out:

4. Is this crowd-sourced database stored on the iPhone?
The entire crowd-sourced database is too big to store on an iPhone, so we download an appropriate subset (cache) onto each iPhone. This cache is protected but not encrypted, and is backed up in iTunes whenever you back up your iPhone. The backup is encrypted or not, depending on the user settings in iTunes. The location data that researchers are seeing on the iPhone is not the past or present location of the iPhone, but rather the locations of Wi-Fi hotspots and cell towers surrounding the iPhone’s location, which can be more than one hundred miles away from the iPhone. We plan to cease backing up this cache in a software update coming soon (see Software Update section below).

And this...the data centre plans hinted at?

8. What other location data is Apple collecting from the iPhone besides crowd-sourced Wi-Fi hotspot and cell tower data?
Apple is now collecting anonymous traffic data to build a crowd-sourced traffic database with the goal of providing iPhone users an improved traffic service in the next couple of years.

Interesting that Apple are claiming such a strong privacy stance:

10. Does Apple believe that personal information security and privacy are important?
Yes, we strongly do. For example, iPhone was the first to ask users to give their permission for each and every app that wanted to use location. Apple will continue to be one of the leaders in strengthening personal information security and privacy.

 

[editor]

This bit stood out:

It's Apple quaint way of saying, "shit we fucked up/got caught out! Let's stop doing it now without admitting any wrongdoing on our behalf at all,"

 

[editor]

Here's another take on their announcement:

Apple Finally Admits iPhone Tracking and Promises Software Fix

Sam Biddle — In a surprising move, Apple's broken their silence on the iPhone location tracking controversy with a Q&A press release. Most notable: they admit the massive data cache goes too far, and will be fixed in an impending software update.

Ever since last week's revelation that iPhones and iPads were persistently logging your location without your knowledge or consent, Apple's refused to offer up any sort of explanation. Meanwhile, foreign governments, congress, and pissed off customers wanted one. As did we. Today, we get one. Pretty much.

The release itself is full of more hedges than a Versailles topiary garden—insisting that "The iPhone is not logging your location," but that instead "it's maintaining a database of Wi-Fi hotspots and cell towers around your current location, some of which may be located more than one hundred miles away from your iPhone, to help your iPhone rapidly and accurately calculate its location when requested."

While the latter part may be true, their "explanation" of the logging is an arrant falsehood. We're not tracking your location, we're just tracking your location! Right. So while this is an admission of some wrongdoing--"We don't think the iPhone needs to store more than seven days of this data"—Apple still refuses to call a spade a spade.

They're logging your location, and have been since this summer. I've seen it with my own eyes, and so have you. Their defense is akin to saying "I haven't been staring in your window at you while you're asleep, I've been looking inside and admiring all of your decor!"

But the bottom line here is that Apple's (implicitly) admitting they screwed up, and despite their doublespeak denial of location logging, are going to be fixing the location logging:

Sometime in the next few weeks Apple will release a free iOS software update that:

Reduces the size of the crowd-sourced Wi-Fi hotspot and cell tower database cached on the iPhone, ceases backing up this cache, and deletes this cache entirely when Location Services is turned off.

In the next major iOS software release the cache will also be encrypted on the iPhone

So Apple knows the logging was wrong, and now that it's been exposed, are shutting it down. This isn't over until the software update's on my phone, but the (overdue) response is better than none at all.

http://gizmodo.com/#!5796140/ispy-apple-admits-iphone-tracking-and-promises-software-fix