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Apparently, Feminism is dead!!!

The problem is that she, and others, are trying to make big pronouncements about what should and shouldn't happen in some hypothetical lovely fluffy nation, and completely ignoring the material realities of people who go into sex work of one kind or another. If we had a lovely utopian society where money and patriarchy didn't exist, then there would be no need for any kind of sex work as we currently understand it because such a society would not only not have money, but I expect ideas around sex would be totally different as well, and it wouldn't be 'sex work' - it'd just be sex. But is such a system going to happen? Any discussion about sex work that ignores the basic system of patriarchal capitalism is going to end up being nothing but a big nasty argument where both sides just continue telling women who end up having no voice in the debate what they should or shouldn't be doing, without offering any kind of solution to material and cultural conditions that set out the range of responses those women have at their disposal in the first place.
 
Moran's "Lap dancing bad/burlesque great" dichotomy is just plain weird. And actually quite annoying. No matter what she says about burlesque being more expressive of individual female sensuality, seems to me it's only more culturally acceptable because it's middle class. Not that I have seen much burlesque, but from what I've seen bar one very creative act, it's just slightly 60s/tongue and cheek stripping.

Cultural acceptability seems to hold a lot of appeal for a lot of people (not only feminists by any stretch) who like to differentiate between mass culture (stripping) and what I suppose such people like to think of as "middle class culture", but which is actually just mass culture with a bit of spit and polish (and in this case a bit of Bettie Page-ish glam).

And the issue of using sex appeal and the "sisterhood", it's complicated. Whilst my stance is as VP outlines above, I will also admit it is sad, frustrating and a little frightening that our culture seems to be statically staying, even perhaps slipping more towards "women primarily as sex objects". And that both those who play the sex appeal game and those who reject it ultimately risk being fucked over. :( And so I guess a struggle for moderate feminists who are focused on these complexities and all the shades of grey (pun really not intended) is how to hold the two together.

I suppose it depends whether using your female attributes is a game, or whether it's a hard-headed tactic, as well as how your choices impact on the entire gender. I've seen a lot of column inches given to the "you can have it all" brigade, who ultimately strike me as faux-feminists because they don't tend to look at how their individual choices impact across their entire gender, especially if they're in "places of privilege" themselves - it's easier to be a working mum if you're in a relationship and have an above-average income (as many media pundits who punt "you can have it all" do) than if you're a single mother for whom childcare costs are the make-or-break factor in whther you work or not.

I think it's a mistake to see it as us/them conflict though. I would definitely put myself on the side of "I do not want to rely on my sexuality to get ahead as a woman", yet that's certainly not to say that I haven't internalised ideas of what I should look like to be acceptable, and that I won 't sometimes purposefully enhance that. And I also imagine that many women in the most visual professions still sometimes get frustrated at not being considered beyond that, or are annoyed that they have to do it. I guess it's not always "either/or", and people are full of contradictions.

To be horribly old-fashioned for a moment, I think a large part of the problem with any "ism" nowadays is that many people are convinced, ironically by consumption capitalism, that they need to assert their individuality at the expense of collectivity. I say "ironically" because the usual route is touted as being through consumption. You're special because you use this product; you should use that product "because you're worth it".
If you see individuality in terms of consumption, then issues of class, gender etc become meaningless in terms of how you identify yourself, they become in effect, sticks to beat yourself with, and that causes all sorts of internal contradictions between how you behave and how you feel you should behave. I suspect that's part of what might lie behind women disavowing feminisms or buying into reductive analyses of them. :(

Which probably explains why, on a drunken night out recently, feminist that I am I swung myself upside down on a lamppost, pole dancer style, and then even had it as my Facebook profile picture for a while (though in my defence it was because I found it fucking hilarious!)

(edited to clear up an accidental "not")

As you say, we're all full of contradictions. :)
 
I guess Edie that those books that sell, at least those in the mainstream, are going to be more popularist, exciting and controversial than "there are many different opinIons on this, let's all consider them in fairness over a cup of tea".

And as what was argued against me when I was criticising the ideas of Oliver James in Afluenza a few years ago, popularist books are going to be, by their nature, biased and even quite intellectually dishonest.

They're also, WAY too often, over-simplified from much more complex arguments. :(

At least with Moran she seems to be quite explicit that it's her opinions rather than a sociological treatise, and that it's as much as a personal memoire as a feminist text.

Whether it's opinion or a treatise, the same rules should apply: provide a substantive argument to support what you're saying.
Otherwise, all you're doing is farting in the wind and misleading people into thinking/assuming your view has some kind of ecological validity when it doesn't.
 
Yes, this is true. But it seems to be a core principle of the new UK feminism. I read this article about Kat Banyard (dubbed Britains leading young feminist by the Guardian) where she was asked if she ever thought there could ever be an ok sex industry, she answers:



And her group UK Feminista actively campaign against dancing clubs. Now cos I've had this argument to death on urban, I cba to argue it further. But it can't just be dismissed as Moran's individual viewpoint.

It kind of hits me in the face, reading that, that she and those who think like her, haven't experienced the sort of twists and turns to their lives where sex work becomes a valid choice for whatever reason, and that they're projecting their particular view as encompassing everyone, rather than just her and people like her. Makes me think of the stuff I've read about charities for "fallen women" in the UK and US at the turn of the century - middle-class dogooders looking down on working-class women and thinking they knew better when they didn't have a clue about the lives, histories or circumstances of such women.
 
The problem is that she, and others, are trying to make big pronouncements about what should and shouldn't happen in some hypothetical lovely fluffy nation, and completely ignoring the material realities of people who go into sex work of one kind or another. If we had a lovely utopian society where money and patriarchy didn't exist, then there would be no need for any kind of sex work as we currently understand it because such a society would not only not have money, but I expect ideas around sex would be totally different as well, and it wouldn't be 'sex work' - it'd just be sex. But is such a system going to happen? Any discussion about sex work that ignores the basic system of patriarchal capitalism is going to end up being nothing but a big nasty argument where both sides just continue telling women who end up having no voice in the debate what they should or shouldn't be doing, without offering any kind of solution to material and cultural conditions that set out the range of responses those women have at their disposal in the first place.

^^^^This. Said so much better (and succinctly!) than I could.
 
Exactly. I think it's so simplistic and easy for women like all these mentioned to say 'say no to sex work' or 'burlesque is empowering but stripping is exploiting women'. These are complicated and emotive subjects, and in my opinion women should not be judged for being sex workers. I know nothing of their histories how and why they are in that situation. To pronounce judgements in the way that these women do does nobody any favours.
 
I disagree on all fronts. Her decisions boil down to a willingness to prance around in her knickers. Her dignity likewise. She eventually left Ashley Cole after a protracted willingness to ignore him being a cunt. She does not make good music. And she's only a "strong" female character if you interpret "strong" as "being willing to dress up for the benefit of others".


I'm not trying to persuade anybody. I'm just pointing out that Cheryl Cole and her cohort have, far from being strong female role models, actually set back feminism by about 20 years.
To misquote a recent statement by Kaitlin Moran: I'll believe she's a strong female role model when she can turn up to work in a baggy cardigan if that's what she wants to do.
This is what kabbes says on the Girls Aloud thread about Cheryl. He's a feminist, and he's making feminist arguments. But listen to what he's saying. His lack of respect (and I don't mean for her music), his judgement that she has no dignity cos of how she dresses, how she uses her sex appeal. Sets back feminism 20 years. Yet who is he to say?

Who is Banyard, who is Moran? I feel I have no more in common with them than bloody kabbes! All this stuff about wearing baggy cardigans :confused: That's not how strong women look to me. I think we could all take a leaf out of Dolly Partons book personally :cool:
 
Who is Banyard, who is Moran? I feel I have no more in common with them than bloody kabbes! All this stuff about wearing baggy cardigans :confused: That's not how strong women look to me. I think we could all take a leaf out of Dolly Partons book personally :cool:
not read the thread (New Posts addict), but I'm pulling you up on this again mate... strong women all look different, and I fucking love Dolly fwiw, but judging on clothes one way or another is fucked up.
 
not read the thread (New Posts addict), but I'm pulling you up on this again mate... strong women all look different, and I fucking love Dolly fwiw, but judging on clothes one way or another is fucked up.
That's why I said 'to me' tbf (altho I take your point). Things is, I don't disagree with you! But it's not me saying how feminist role models should look. It's kabbes telling me how they definitely *dont look*.

Eta: Dolly! <3 :cool:
 
That's why I said 'to me' tbf (altho I take your point). Things is, I don't disagree with you! But it's not me saying how feminist role models should look. It's kabbes telling me how they definitely *dont look*.
It's both of you ;) :D
 
It kind of hits me in the face, reading that, that she and those who think like her, haven't experienced the sort of twists and turns to their lives where sex work becomes a valid choice for whatever reason, and that they're projecting their particular view as encompassing everyone, rather than just her and people like her. Makes me think of the stuff I've read about charities for "fallen women" in the UK and US at the turn of the century - middle-class dogooders looking down on working-class women and thinking they knew better when they didn't have a clue about the lives, histories or circumstances of such women.

"The law in its majestic equality forbids paupers and millionaires alike from sleeping under bridges."
 
This is what kabbes says on the Girls Aloud thread about Cheryl. He's a feminist, and he's making feminist arguments. But listen to what he's saying. His lack of respect (and I don't mean for her music), his judgement that she has no dignity cos of how she dresses, how she uses her sex appeal. Sets back feminism 20 years. Yet who is he to say?

Who is Banyard, who is Moran? I feel I have no more in common with them than bloody kabbes! All this stuff about wearing baggy cardigans :confused: That's not how strong women look to me. I think we could all take a leaf out of Dolly Partons book personally :cool:
You do realise that the whole point of feminism was to try to create the situation in which a woman had worth other than just as a sex object, right? And that objectification is bad both prima facie and also for the way that encourages a mode of thought for which the value of women generally becomes degraded?
 
You do realise that the whole point of feminism was to try to create the situation in which a woman had worth other than just as a sex object, right? And that objectification is bad both prima facie and also for the way that encourages a mode of thought for which the value of women generally becomes degraded?
The whole point of feminism is to struggle against a patriarchal system in whichever way that women want.
 
The whole point of feminism is to struggle against a patriarchal system in whichever way that women want.
True enough. I don't see that the points are incompatible though. They amount to the same thing.
 
True enough. I don't see that the points are incompatible though. They amount to the same thing.
They're incompatible insofar that some women don't agree with you.

Edit: i.e. if this is what they choose, if this is how they prefer to dress, if this is the sort of work that they want to do - it's up to them.
 
They're incompatible insofar that some women don't agree with you.
Really? I don't see how any analysis that bears in mind historical and current social context, rather than a simplistic liberal "everybody can just choose for themselves!", could take it that way.

We still live in a world in which business meetings are conducted in strip joints, ffs. It's hard to be taken seriously when the prevailing social attitude is that looking young and beautiful is the most important thing in your life. If none of that were true so that free choices really were free choices then you might have a point. But in the world as it actually is, it's nowhere near that simple.
 
Edit: i.e. if this is what they choose, if this is how they prefer to dress, if this is the sort of work that they want to do - it's up to them.
I've followed this thread but not posted much as I don't feel qualified to comment on a lot of it, and don't know what I think exactly about other bits. But isn't this stress on choice, which was de Beauvoir's main point, the main reason certain kinds of feminism have seemed rather middle-class concerns - claiming the same freedom for middle-class women that middle-class men have, but not really talking too much to working class women?
 
Really? I don't see how any analysis that bears in mind historical and current social context, rather than a simplistic liberal "everybody can just choose for themselves!", could take it that way.

We still live in a world in which business meetings are conducted in strip joints, ffs. It's hard to be taken seriously when the prevailing social attitude is that looking young and beautiful is the most important thing in your life. If none of that were true so that free choices really were free choices then you might have a point. But in the world as it actually is, it's nowhere near that simple.
It's the struggle for a free choice (and not one that's dictated by conscription or economic necessity, or by (for the sake of example) the moral objections of men rooted in religiosity) which is the point.
 
Edit: i.e. if this is what they choose, if this is how they prefer to dress, if this is the sort of work that they want to do - it's up to them.
Ah yes, choice.

And what happens tomorrow, when they want to dress differently? The producers will be OK with that, will they? In this world of free choice?
 
I've followed this thread but not posted much as I don't feel qualified to comment on a lot of it, and don't know what I think exactly about other bits. But isn't this stress on choice, which was de Beauvoir's main point, the main reason certain kinds of feminism have seemed rather middle-class concerns - claiming the same freedom for middle-class women that middle-class men have, but not really talking too much to working class women?
It's not the stress on choice which is the main reason for that - but that the choices are more limited for working class women. That doesn't mean that we should dilute their right to choice by reference to "reality" which we struggle to change.
 
And when these choices re-enforce the status quo, in which women struggle to be taken seriously as a result of being viewed for their sexuality first, and the effect is that millions of other women find themselves continue to be marginalised and ignored -- that's choice, right?

This isn't about whether or not Cheryl Cole has the right to do what she does. It's purely about whether being dressed up like dolls and told that you have to dance in your knickers to make records acts to advance or retard the cause of feminism. It's about whether or not she is a strong female role model. Frankly, I think I hear generations of thoughtful feminists weeping at being told that a modern day version of Miss World is helping the feminist cause.
 
It's not the stress on choice which is the main reason for that - but that the choices are more limited for working class women. That doesn't mean that we should dilute their right to choice by reference to "reality" which we struggle to change.
Problem is that we're not islands. Our choices affect the choices of others. Fay Weldon has said that on reflection the campaigns she was involved in in the 70s, which centred on women's rights to work, eventually had the unintended effect of taking away the right not to work from many working class women, who in reality wanted to find a man to marry and have kids with and didn't really want to work - work for them not signifying some great freedom but rather simply a disagreeable obligation.
 
Problem is that we're not islands. Our choices affect the choices of others. Fay Weldon has said that on reflection the campaigns she was involved in in the 70s, which centred on women's rights to work, eventually had the unintended effect of taking away the right not to work from many working class women, who in reality wanted to find a man to marry and have kids with and didn't really want to work - work for them not signifying some great freedom but rather simply a disagreeable obligation.
Quite.
 
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