Another Russian spy hit?
- Thread starter krtek a houby
- Start date
not-bono-ever
meh
that film almost looks setup. Almost
dylanredefined
Not a house elf a tiger
pesh
Well-Known Member
I can think of a few ways ranging from rum punch to water cannon
NoXion
Craicy the Squirrel
Why a pity? LSD isn't really a poison, but at the same time it can produce a frightening experience, even for people who know that they've taken it and have some idea of what to expect. In a high-stress environment like a battlefield or a riot such effects would seem likely to be lead to nightmarish outcomes, especially with weapons involved.
stuff_it
Too skool for cool
My understanding is that there are lots of Cold War era weapons of all sorts in semi-private and private Russian hands after the break up of the Soviet Union. It's one of the countries where a nerve agent attack may quite easily come from non-state sources.
dylanredefined
Not a house elf a tiger
Only incapacitate worth a damm is mustard agent. Think I d prefer getting sprayed with lsd than mustard gas.
likesfish
You can't park here sir
well compared to nerve agents like sarin or VX or napalm high explosive or thermobaric a dose of LSD is an infinitely better outcome
all the above are definitely lethal
likesfish
You can't park here sir
nerve agent is not something non-state actors would keep hanging about most of the really nasty stuff has a use by date. fuchs66 was the chemical weapons expert.
chances are a binary agent was used. two chemicals which you mix before use. because you'd have to be insane to covertly move an active nerve agent
unlike North Korea the agents probably didn't get to practice on live targets till they got it down pat
not a trot
Well-Known Member
nerve agent is not something non-state actors would keep hanging about most of the really nasty stuff has a use by date. fuchs66 was the chemical weapons expert.
chances are a binary agent was used. two chemicals which you mix before use. because you'd have to be insane to covertly move an active nerve agent
Is the use by date the same as the best before date ?
teqniq
DisMembered
tim
EXPLODED TIM! (Help me!!!)
The 1995 Tokyo subway sarin attacks were carried out by Aum Shinrikyo a religious cult, not a state . They managed to seemingly safely manafacture the sarin and effectively deliver it.
Surely, there are groups and individuals in both Russia and Britain rich and competent enough to do the same.
Surely, there are groups and individuals in both Russia and Britain rich and competent enough to do the same.
2hats
Dust.
They didn’t manage to manufacture it entirely safely: a member of Aum Shinrikyo, an organic chemist, produced research quantities of the G agent sarin (he also produced similar levels of soman and VX, all of varying quality). In order to scale up sarin production they sought (and got) help from senior Russian officials in building a small plant. When they had accidents in production they sought their help again to clean the mess up (this is all documented in subsequent Japanese trial paperwork). They badly poisoned and killed some cult members during production and early trials.
(Aum tried to use the VX to kill several people they believed might threaten them in separate individual attacks but only succeeded once, the other times the product and/or delivery being ineffective. They tried to kill others with sarin in small targeted attacks but more often than not ended up killing others than their intended victims eg once when the wind changed direction on them during dispersal.)
They didn't deliver the sarin very effectively: some 13 people died across multiple lines of the Tokyo subway system at rush hour. If they had been able to deliver it effectively, weaponise it (which is, along with storage and handling, one of the really hard parts), then that number would more likely have been in the thousands to tens of thousands. Furthermore, they also used a suboptimal route for the production of the nerve agent for that attack and this significantly reduced its toxicity.
As per the above, any postgrad organic chemist could produce samples (e2a: providing they have a large budget and access to suitable industrial suppliers, as Aum did) but it’s the upscaling, handling, storage, delivery of it that is tricky. Binaries help here (Aum didn’t produce a binary), particularly if an assailant intends to use them for assassination purposes and hopes to get away with it and their life intact (several of the cult members poisoned themselves in the process of trying to leave the sarin on the subway).
Here it appears we have a novel/rare agent delivered without apparent harm to an assailant and minimal collateral damage. This tends to point to a level of training and sophistication associated with a state player.
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2hats
Dust.
Several of the agents are quite volatile once prepared (particularly some of the more ‘easily’ produced ones).
T & P
|-o-| (-o-) |-o-|
Given that at his height ISIS had a considerable amount of money to both buy equipment and recruit/ bribe people, I’m surprised they haven’t managed to procure some nerve agent. Unless the issue is smuggling it into Europe. And unlike the Japanese lot, they have the luxury of not caring about their own safety.
likesfish
You can't park here sir
Nerve agent is horribly lethal but the delivery over a wide area to inflict mass casualties is really complex that’s why it fell out of favour as a battlefield weapon you have to saturate an area with agent one bomb not so much.
That’s why the chemical attacks in Syria have been remarkably less than catastrophic
That’s why the chemical attacks in Syria have been remarkably less than catastrophic
kebabking
Not a Girly Swot, but I like them....
I would suggest that neither the UK nor Russian governmentss have a laissez-faire attitude to private groups or individuals producing nerve agents or other NBCR weapons on their territories, regardless of in what direction those groups or individuals might wish to point those weapons....
To be clear, this is the use of a dispersed CW within the territory of a state that has nuclear weapons and a declared policy of its willingness to use those weapons to retaliate against the use of NBCR weapons on its territory or against its citizens or interests.
I leave that hanging there, much like the sword of Damocles...
elbows
Well-Known Member
I feel only indifference towards this, because the nuclear threat and deterrent is a somewhat weird thing. It's such a big, dramatic threat with such serious consequences, that there are all manner of situations where it would be a disproportionate response to the situation. Chuck in the mutually assured destruction bit and I find the nuclear stuff quite meaningless in regards this sort of incident. No matter the rhetoric.
2hats
Dust.
Absolutely.
That sword is, as demonstrated clearly by this event and Litvinenko before it (and quite probably a number of other cases), quite limp. Uncle Vlad is likely pretty sure there is no scenario short of a final full nuclear exchange in which HMG will roll out the instant sunshine. I suspect he is right.
Meanwhile, all visitors to the Zizzi restaurant in Salisbury, (finally) now being asked by the chief medical officer of England to self-decontaminate, I see.
kenny g
Sheeple Awake!
It was claimed (albeit in passing!) in a Guardian article the other day, that the retired-spy man had 'developed a taste for local ale' of late
, after he'd joined a social club in Salisbury.
Based on the number of obituaries for CAMRA members "who went too soon" (never that surprising considering their primary hobby is getting pissed) in their monthly bulletin the Russians should have just waited and let nature (or is that 8 pints of the finest on a daily basis) take its course.
Artaxerxes
Look out, he's got a gnu!
We are apparently sending a strongly worded letter to Russia asking "yo, what the fuck?"
andysays
Love and solidarity
cupid_stunt
Chief seagull hater & farmerbarleymow's nemesis.
davesgcr
Reading books
Just been reading "Stalin;s Englishman" - the life and times of Guy Burgess - notable nasty drunken "toff" who with Philby , Maclean and Blunt - the jeunesse dore (sic) of Cambridge who gave much away to the Ruski's in the 1940's and 1950's.
However , Burgess at least lived a lonely and increasingly drunken life as a "guest" of the Russians , no garlic bread and rissotto in Salisbury for him - pined for England , maybe he ought to have cleaned up his act and acted as a gentleman , as opposed to a total , insalubrious traitor of the worse mendacious characteristics. My view of course.
Quite fascinating stuff - brought down the intellectual Goronwy Rees , one time Principal of UC Aberystwyth , - hence my random interest ....
However , Burgess at least lived a lonely and increasingly drunken life as a "guest" of the Russians , no garlic bread and rissotto in Salisbury for him - pined for England , maybe he ought to have cleaned up his act and acted as a gentleman , as opposed to a total , insalubrious traitor of the worse mendacious characteristics. My view of course.
Quite fascinating stuff - brought down the intellectual Goronwy Rees , one time Principal of UC Aberystwyth , - hence my random interest ....
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
It's the former, Tess. Never mind though, I'm sure you're going to give them a strong telling off; maybe expel a couple of their chaps, they'll expel a couple of ours, then we can all get back to business as usual.
