Another Russian spy hit?

[not-bono-ever]

not murray again. please.

 

[krtek a houby]

Craig Murray has now hit this out of the park - Of A Type Developed By Liars - Craig Murray

Of A Type Developed By Liars 101
16 Mar, 2018 in Uncategorized by craig

I have now received confirmation from a well placed FCO source that Porton Down scientists are not able to identify the nerve gas as being of Russian manufacture, and have been resentful of the pressure being placed on them to do so. Porton Down would only sign up to the formulation “of a type developed by Russia” after a rather difficult meeting where this was agreed as a compromise formulation. The Russians were allegedly researching, in the “Novichok” programme a generation of nerve agents which could be produced from commercially available precursors such as insecticides and fertilisers. This substance is a “novichok” in that sense. It is of that type. Just as I am typing on a laptop of a type developed by the United States, though this one was made in China.

To anybody with a Whitehall background this has been obvious for several days. The government has never said the nerve agent was made in Russia, or that it can only be made in Russia. The exact formulation “of a type developed by Russia” was used by Theresa May in parliament, used by the UK at the UN Security Council, used by Boris Johnson on the BBC yesterday and, most tellingly of all, “of a type developed by Russia” is the precise phrase used in the joint communique issued by the UK, USA, France and Germany yesterday:

This use of a military-grade nerve agent, of a type developed by Russia, constitutes the first offensive use of a nerve agent in Europe since the Second World War.

When the same extremely careful phrasing is never deviated from, you know it is the result of a very delicate Whitehall compromise. My FCO source, like me, remembers the extreme pressure put on FCO staff and other civil servants to sign off the dirty dossier on Iraqi WMD, some of which pressure I recount in my memoir Murder in Samarkand. She volunteered the comparison to what is happening now, particularly at Porton Down, with no prompting from me.

Separately I have written to the media office at OPCW to ask them to confirm that there has never been any physical evidence of the existence of Russian Novichoks, and the programme of inspection and destruction of Russian chemical weapons was completed last year.

Did you know these interesting facts?

OPCW inspectors have had full access to all known Russian chemical weapons facilities for over a decade – including those identified by the “Novichok” alleged whistleblower Mirzayanov – and last year OPCW inspectors completed the destruction of the last of 40,000 tonnes of Russian chemical weapons

By contrast the programme of destruction of US chemical weapons stocks still has five years to run

Israel has extensive stocks of chemical weapons but has always refused to declare any of them to the OPCW. Israel is not a state party to the Chemical Weapons Convention nor a member of the OPCW. Israel signed in 1993 but refused to ratify as this would mean inspection and destruction of its chemical weapons. Israel undoubtedly has as much technical capacity as any state to synthesise “Novichoks”.

Until this week, the near universal belief among chemical weapons experts, and the official position of the OPCW, was that “Novichoks” were at most a theoretical research programme which the Russians had never succeeded in actually synthesising and manufacturing. That is why they are not on the OPCW list of banned chemical weapons.

Porton Down is still not certain it is the Russians who have apparently synthesised a “Novichok”. Hence “Of a type developed by Russia”. Note developed, not made, produced or manufactured.

It is very carefully worded propaganda. Of a type developed by liars.

UPDATE

This post prompted another old colleague to get in touch. On the bright side, the FCO have persuaded Boris he has to let the OPCW investigate a sample. But not just yet. The expectation is the inquiry committee will be chaired by a Chinese delegate. The Boris plan is to get the OPCW also to sign up to the “as developed by Russia” formula, and diplomacy to this end is being undertaken in Beijing right now.

I don’t suppose there is any sign of the BBC doing any actual journalism on this?

Oh, it's Israel. Right.

 

[Spymaster]

'Look at the fucknugget thinking differently to us'

I think it was Weapons grade fucknugget.

 

[krtek a houby]

I've just realised that there's a rabbit and a squirrel on this thread

 

[newbie]

That would be one possibility. The absence of it , as far as we can see anyway, should not be taken as proof that this def wasn't what happened. I'm sure you can think of many reasons to hold back on that course of action in the short term.

I can, although most of them fail the common sense test for a state that wishes to maintain halfway reasonable relationships with rivals and is innocent of the accusation.

Promoting an identifiable threat generally works to bolster rather than erode political support for a strong leader, so I'm rather unconvinced by the whole proposition.

 

[kebabking]

...I don’t suppose there is any sign of the BBC doing any actual journalism on this?

how about some 'journalism' on the somewhat improbable idea that either any of Craig Murrays' old FCO colleagues are still talking to him, or that if there are some FCO people still on social terms with him they would be communicating some of the most sensitive information currently held by government to a man who has very publicly gone down the conspiraloon rabbit hole - and being almost entirely financed by RT while so doing - or indeed that anyone at Porton Down would discuss anything beyond the time of day with anyone so both scientifically illiterate and so unreliable as FCO officials?

as a general rule, people at Porton Down make Submariners look like sufferers of verbal diarrhoea, so no, i don't beleive what well established liar and fantastist Craig Murrays says about imagined conversations.

 

[Jeremiah18.17]

So according to Murray there are no "black sites" or "black programmes" in Russia who are completely transparent, unlike the US and Israel? And Novichoks are simultaneously so easy to make that any state could have synthesised them quickly, but not the Russians? And Boris doesn't want the OPCW to have samples because he doesn't want them to know it cannot be proved it was made in Russia despite them already knowing this? Hmmm

 

[Spymaster]

Craig Murray has now hit this out of the park - Of A Type Developed By Liars - Craig Murray

Of A Type Developed By Liars 101
16 Mar, 2018 in Uncategorized by craig

I have now received confirmation from a well placed FCO source that Porton Down scientists are not able to identify the nerve gas as being of Russian manufacture, and have been resentful of the pressure being placed on them to do so. Porton Down would only sign up to the formulation “of a type developed by Russia” after a rather difficult meeting where this was agreed as a compromise formulation. The Russians were allegedly researching, in the “Novichok” programme a generation of nerve agents which could be produced from commercially available precursors such as insecticides and fertilisers. This substance is a “novichok” in that sense. It is of that type. Just as I am typing on a laptop of a type developed by the United States, though this one was made in China.

To anybody with a Whitehall background this has been obvious for several days. The government has never said the nerve agent was made in Russia, or that it can only be made in Russia. The exact formulation “of a type developed by Russia” was used by Theresa May in parliament, used by the UK at the UN Security Council, used by Boris Johnson on the BBC yesterday and, most tellingly of all, “of a type developed by Russia” is the precise phrase used in the joint communique issued by the UK, USA, France and Germany yesterday:

This use of a military-grade nerve agent, of a type developed by Russia, constitutes the first offensive use of a nerve agent in Europe since the Second World War.

When the same extremely careful phrasing is never deviated from, you know it is the result of a very delicate Whitehall compromise. My FCO source, like me, remembers the extreme pressure put on FCO staff and other civil servants to sign off the dirty dossier on Iraqi WMD, some of which pressure I recount in my memoir Murder in Samarkand. She volunteered the comparison to what is happening now, particularly at Porton Down, with no prompting from me.

Separately I have written to the media office at OPCW to ask them to confirm that there has never been any physical evidence of the existence of Russian Novichoks, and the programme of inspection and destruction of Russian chemical weapons was completed last year.

Did you know these interesting facts?

OPCW inspectors have had full access to all known Russian chemical weapons facilities for over a decade – including those identified by the “Novichok” alleged whistleblower Mirzayanov – and last year OPCW inspectors completed the destruction of the last of 40,000 tonnes of Russian chemical weapons

By contrast the programme of destruction of US chemical weapons stocks still has five years to run

Israel has extensive stocks of chemical weapons but has always refused to declare any of them to the OPCW. Israel is not a state party to the Chemical Weapons Convention nor a member of the OPCW. Israel signed in 1993 but refused to ratify as this would mean inspection and destruction of its chemical weapons. Israel undoubtedly has as much technical capacity as any state to synthesise “Novichoks”.

Until this week, the near universal belief among chemical weapons experts, and the official position of the OPCW, was that “Novichoks” were at most a theoretical research programme which the Russians had never succeeded in actually synthesising and manufacturing. That is why they are not on the OPCW list of banned chemical weapons.

Porton Down is still not certain it is the Russians who have apparently synthesised a “Novichok”. Hence “Of a type developed by Russia”. Note developed, not made, produced or manufactured.

It is very carefully worded propaganda. Of a type developed by liars.

UPDATE

This post prompted another old colleague to get in touch. On the bright side, the FCO have persuaded Boris he has to let the OPCW investigate a sample. But not just yet. The expectation is the inquiry committee will be chaired by a Chinese delegate. The Boris plan is to get the OPCW also to sign up to the “as developed by Russia” formula, and diplomacy to this end is being undertaken in Beijing right now.

I don’t suppose there is any sign of the BBC doing any actual journalism on this?

So, yesterday you were hanging your hat on the fact that France would not point the finger at Russia without proof. Given that France is now unequivocal in their condemnation and stand full square behind the UK, will you accept that they have seen proof that you haven’t?

 

[cupid_stunt]

So, yesterday you were hanging your hat on the fact that France would not point the finger at Russia without proof. Given that France is now unequivocal in their condemnation and stand, full square, behind the UK, will you accept that they have seen proof that you haven’t?

Highly unlikely, not the MO of loons.

 

[Spymaster]

how about some 'journalism' on the somewhat improbable idea that either any of Craig Murrays' old FCO colleagues are still talking to him, or that if there are some FCO people still on social terms with him they would be communicating some of the most sensitive information currently held by government to man who has very publicly gone down the conspiraloon rabbit hole - and being almoost entirely financed by RT while so doing - or indeed that anyone at Porton Down would discuss anything beyond the time of day with anyone so both scientifically illiterate and so unreliable as FCO officials.

Absolutely.

Does anyone apart from Squirrel and a few other tinfoilers really believe that Murray has the inside track on some of the most secret gen on the planet currently?

Craig Murray is a bullshitting skidmark, squirrelp .

Why do you believe him and Putin over everyone else?

 

[squirrelp]

So, yesterday you were hanging your hat on the fact that France would not point the finger at Russia without proof. Given that France is now unequivocal in their condemnation and stand full square behind the UK, will you accept that they have seen proof that you haven’t?

In what way did I 'hang my hat'? I simply quoted their previous position.

And no of course not. If there is such proof then not only they could say so, but our government could say so.

As Craig Murray very helpfully points out the wording being used belies the non-existence of any such proof.

This is identical to Saddam Hussein and WMDs except the evidence is possibly flimsier.

 

[pesh]

what was Saddam's beef with Salisbury again?

 

[Spymaster]

In what way did I 'hang my hat'? I simply quoted their previous position.

You quoted their position to bolster your own position that proof was lacking.

You did that because the French said that they would not condemn Russia without proof.

The French now condemn Russia.

What does that tell you?

 

[cupid_stunt]

This is identical to Saddam Hussein and WMDs except the evidence is possibly flimsier.

Says the expert with full access to the evidence.

 

[kebabking]

what was Saddam's beef with Salisbury again?

too pointy, with not enough foundation.

i wonder if squirrelp has a pointy head, or just a sloped one...

 

[cupid_stunt]

Looks pointy to me.

 

[squirrelp]

The French now condemn Russia.

What does that tell you?

It means they have joined our position for reasons unknown.

There can be no inference that proof exists from such a change.

 

[squirrelp]

Says the expert with full access to the evidence.

That's the line Tony Blair was taking when he was overstating the case.

 

[existentialist]

Craig Murray has now hit this out of the park - Of A Type Developed By Liars - Craig Murray

Of A Type Developed By Liars 101
16 Mar, 2018 in Uncategorized by craig

I have now received confirmation from a well placed FCO source that Porton Down scientists are not able to identify the nerve gas as being of Russian manufacture, and have been resentful of the pressure being placed on them to do so. Porton Down would only sign up to the formulation “of a type developed by Russia” after a rather difficult meeting where this was agreed as a compromise formulation. The Russians were allegedly researching, in the “Novichok” programme a generation of nerve agents which could be produced from commercially available precursors such as insecticides and fertilisers. This substance is a “novichok” in that sense. It is of that type. Just as I am typing on a laptop of a type developed by the United States, though this one was made in China.

To anybody with a Whitehall background this has been obvious for several days. The government has never said the nerve agent was made in Russia, or that it can only be made in Russia. The exact formulation “of a type developed by Russia” was used by Theresa May in parliament, used by the UK at the UN Security Council, used by Boris Johnson on the BBC yesterday and, most tellingly of all, “of a type developed by Russia” is the precise phrase used in the joint communique issued by the UK, USA, France and Germany yesterday:

This use of a military-grade nerve agent, of a type developed by Russia, constitutes the first offensive use of a nerve agent in Europe since the Second World War.

When the same extremely careful phrasing is never deviated from, you know it is the result of a very delicate Whitehall compromise. My FCO source, like me, remembers the extreme pressure put on FCO staff and other civil servants to sign off the dirty dossier on Iraqi WMD, some of which pressure I recount in my memoir Murder in Samarkand. She volunteered the comparison to what is happening now, particularly at Porton Down, with no prompting from me.

Separately I have written to the media office at OPCW to ask them to confirm that there has never been any physical evidence of the existence of Russian Novichoks, and the programme of inspection and destruction of Russian chemical weapons was completed last year.

Did you know these interesting facts?

OPCW inspectors have had full access to all known Russian chemical weapons facilities for over a decade – including those identified by the “Novichok” alleged whistleblower Mirzayanov – and last year OPCW inspectors completed the destruction of the last of 40,000 tonnes of Russian chemical weapons

By contrast the programme of destruction of US chemical weapons stocks still has five years to run

Israel has extensive stocks of chemical weapons but has always refused to declare any of them to the OPCW. Israel is not a state party to the Chemical Weapons Convention nor a member of the OPCW. Israel signed in 1993 but refused to ratify as this would mean inspection and destruction of its chemical weapons. Israel undoubtedly has as much technical capacity as any state to synthesise “Novichoks”.

Until this week, the near universal belief among chemical weapons experts, and the official position of the OPCW, was that “Novichoks” were at most a theoretical research programme which the Russians had never succeeded in actually synthesising and manufacturing. That is why they are not on the OPCW list of banned chemical weapons.

Porton Down is still not certain it is the Russians who have apparently synthesised a “Novichok”. Hence “Of a type developed by Russia”. Note developed, not made, produced or manufactured.

It is very carefully worded propaganda. Of a type developed by liars.

UPDATE

This post prompted another old colleague to get in touch. On the bright side, the FCO have persuaded Boris he has to let the OPCW investigate a sample. But not just yet. The expectation is the inquiry committee will be chaired by a Chinese delegate. The Boris plan is to get the OPCW also to sign up to the “as developed by Russia” formula, and diplomacy to this end is being undertaken in Beijing right now.

I don’t suppose there is any sign of the BBC doing any actual journalism on this?

"Hit this out of the park"?

Get over yourself, you knob.

 

[squirrelp]

Guys this is just smoke and mirrors.

There's no proof, not even any evidence at all that Russia was involved, none has been presented and it is not even claimed that any exists.

 

[kebabking]

Guys this is just smoke and mirrors.

There's no proof, not even any evidence at all that Russia was involved, none has been presented and it is not even claimed that any exists.

just fuck off you loon.

 

[existentialist]

You quoted their position to bolster your own position that proof was lacking.

You did that because the French said that they would not condemn Russia without proof.

The French now condemn Russia.

What does that tell you?

Like everything that squirrelp gets told, it tells him he was right all along. Because he cannot be wrong.

 

[emanymton]

The Telegraph has come up with a new theory on the method of delivery...



Suitcase spy poisoning plot: nerve agent 'was planted in luggage of Sergei Skripal's daughter'

I'm not an expert on assassination techniques, but that doesn't sound like a reliable way to target him. Unless planted in a gift know to be for him. Even then a bit chancey.

 

[Badgers]

What side will China choose?

 

[kebabking]

What side will China choose?

They'll back Putin, not because they like him, but because they recognise that the enemy is the west - and that that which damages the west is good for them in the long term. They will, of course, have the option ready to hoover up client states in Central and Western Asia should Putin's gamble not pay off and go very pear shaped.

 

[Spymaster]

It means they have joined our position for reasons unknown.

There can be no inference that proof exists from such a change.

I first noticed you on the cricket threads and actually rather liked you. Now I find out that you're a WGF.

Really disappointing.

 

[Kaka Tim]

Guys this is just smoke and mirrors.

There's no proof, not even any evidence at all that Russia was involved, none has been presented and it is not even claimed that any exists.

except its by far the most obvious explanation.

1. well established track record of exactly this type of attack.
2. access to a military grade nerve agent - that orginates in Russia.
3. target was on putin's shit list.
4. barely concealed gloating from them and utter lack of any effort to show that it wasn't them other than "fuck off".
5. Unanimous agreement from the rest of europe and the US (bar trump) that is was Russia. (countries with a history of scepticism and currently quite pissed off the UK).

Its obvious that it was Russia in exactly the same way that it was obvious that Iraqi WMD was bullshit.

 

[not-bono-ever]

They'll back Putin, not because they like him, but because they recognise that the enemy is the west - and that that which damages the west is good for them in the long term. They will, of course, have the option ready to hoover up client states in Central and Western Asia should Putin's gamble not pay off and go very pear shaped.

Putin is giving China heavily discounted Siberian gas as an alternate outlet re sanctions

Also, President for life will be looking to annoy the USA & its bestie mates for its glib throwaway comments about One China policy and steel/Ali tariffs imposition

 

[squirrelp]

except its by far the most obvious explanation.

1. well established track record of exactly this type of attack.

That the Russian state may well have acted in the case of Litvinkienko does not preclude that this may have been a psy-op with the motive of damaging Russia's reputation.

2. access to a military grade nerve agent - that orginates in Russia.

This is entirely sketchy. There is no evidence or indeed claim that Russia ever manufactured these nerve agents. The entire Russian chemical weapons has been certified as being destroyed. That includes all the manufacturing plants identified by the Russian chemist who invented the concept of novichoks.

3. target was on putin's shit list.

Unlikely he was getting a christmas card. But what to gain from killing him? They'd already imprisoned him for treason - they could have killed him then if they had wanted - and then they had released him on a spy swap agreement. The atmosphere of retribution that then could be whipped up, and is indeed being whipped up - is obvious. Why would they wish that? On the other hand, if someone else wanted to whip up such an atmosphere, this would be a perfect way to attempt to accomplish it.

4. barely concealed gloating from them and utter lack of any effort to show that it wasn't them other than "fuck off".

If they had nothing to do with it then they are being asked to prove a negative and they can fairly be dismissive of that.

5. Unanimous agreement from the rest of europe and the US (bar trump) that is was Russia. (countries with a history of scepticism and currently quite pissed off the UK).

Countries with a history of siding with the USA and against Russia in the cold war.

Its obvious that it was Russia in exactly the same way that it was obvious that Iraqi WMD was bullshit.

Out of interest, did you post that WMD was 'bullshit' at the time? I would be genuinely impressed to see such a post.

 

[2hats]

I like how the technically challenged foil wearer shamelessly contradicts his previous missive with each new issue:

As recently as 2016 Dr Robin Black, Head of the Detection Laboratory at the UK’s only chemical weapons facility at Porton Down, a former colleague of Dr David Kelly, published in an extremely prestigious scientific journal that the evidence for the existence of Novichoks was scant and their composition unknown.
…
Given that the OPCW has taken the view the evidence for the existence of “Novichoks” is dubious…

The Russians were allegedly researching, in the “Novichok” programme a generation of nerve agents which could be produced from commercially available precursors such as insecticides and fertilisers. This substance is a “novichok” in that sense. It is of that type.

(Though the above is both wrong - the programme was Foliant, the line of agents Novichok - and ignorant or disingenuous - all nerve agents G, V, A can be derived from commercial insecticides and fertilisers and G, V were historically derived from research into such, but hey, who’d have thought that batshit loons don’t tend to do their research thoroughly. Furthermore, early development of A-series was carried out by adding new radicals to the molecular skeletons of G-series agents. Commercial analogues, insecticides, etc, were back engineered later for the purposes of denial).