Another Russian spy hit?

[newbie]

start by not describing, or thinking of, the UK as a minor power when compared to Russia.

when the British government wants to make a point by publicly killing British citizens abroad they choose to do so in places like Syria, Iraq and Gibraltar. Russia appears to choose Britain. Possibly the choice is a way of showing respect for the host country's strength and power.

I mean, I take you point, but I'm not sure Putin sees the power balance in quite the same light.

 

[Dogsauce]

UK to build new chemical defence centre

48 million? A slight over reaction or am I being glib?

It'll be a project that's already planned being reannounced so as to sound like they're doing something. You don't design and cost a new defence centre over the course of a weekend. Probably just a new toilet block being built using 'best value' PFI procurement.

 

[agricola]

HMG knowing exactly what has gone on via intelligence and scientific sources that they are unlikely to ever make public, is far more believable.

That doesn't sound like HMG. What would be more likely is that as part of the cuts they'd just made the team that had all their knowledge about this type of nerve agent redundant, and then had to hurriedly pay through the nose to get them all back. This would also explain the £40 million new building which probably only contains their new comfy chairs, break area, Nespresso machines etc.

 

[SpookyFrank]

when the British government wants to make a point by publicly killing British citizens abroad they choose to do so in places like Syria, Iraq and Gibraltar. Russia appears to choose Britain. Possibly the choice is a way of showing respect for the host country's strength and power.

I mean, I take you point, but I'm not sure Putin sees the power balance in quite the same light.

He knows the imbalance in military power is irrelevant because the UK and friends aren't going to attack Russia. He's already tested this theory by invading a European country and helping himself to a large chunk of it without any repercussions, and by bombing the west's proxies in Syria also with no repercussions. He also knows the current British government is spineless, incompetent and at the mercy of foreign capital, much of it Russian.

 

[newbie]

He knows the imbalance in military power is irrelevant because the UK and friends aren't going to attack Russia. He's already tested this theory by invading a European country and helping himself to a large chunk of it without any repercussions, and by bombing the west's proxies in Syria also with no repercussions. He also knows the current British government is spineless, incompetent and at the mercy of foreign capital, much of it Russian.

it's not power then, is it?

 

[agricola]

He knows the imbalance in military power is irrelevant because the UK and friends aren't going to attack Russia. He's already tested this theory by invading a European country and helping himself to a large chunk of it without any repercussions, and by bombing the west's proxies in Syria also with no repercussions. He also knows the current British government is spineless, incompetent and at the mercy of foreign capital, much of it Russian.

TBF I think the Ukraine thing was tolerated because it made it far more likely that the rest of the country would remain in the Western sphere of influence, and given the people involved at the time I would not be at all surprised if he was actually told that.

 

[SpookyFrank]

it's not power then, is it?

Enough nuclear weapons to obliterate all life on Earth still counts as power IMO. Ditto one of the world's only blue water navies.

 

[elbows]

Enough nuclear weapons to obliterate all life on Earth still counts as power IMO. Ditto one of the world's only blue water navies.

Some people have weird ideas about how much power the UK has these days dont they? Just because we are not at the peak of the British Empires powers, and some of the loss of international power had to be pointed out via things like Suez all those years ago, doesnt mean we fell off the charts in the subsequent decades.

In addition to the things you point out, we might compare our defence budget to that of Russia and see that they are not in completely different leagues. Or take note of how Russia has not failed to recognise our Atlantic Bridge/US Proxy role. Or our position in the ranks of global arms dealing. Or our focus on cyber warfare stuff including flogging related products to other countries. Or our loud role in NATO. Or our permanent seat on the UN security council.

 

[newbie]

Enough nuclear weapons to obliterate all life on Earth still counts as power IMO. Ditto one of the world's only blue water navies.

and that's very useful for keeping Gibraltar or Argentina in check, but Russia is taking no notice. I presume no-one wants war over this, so MAD is of no practical use.

The bluff- or perhaps confidence trick- is being called. Russia is asserting that it's a modern world power irrespective of sneers about rusty ships or whatever. And it's asserting that the UK is a paper tiger, albeit one with a significant legacy warfighting capability.

Because, at least in the short term, direct warfighting isn't part of a modern struggle comprised of social force manipulation, overtly public signalling via murder, industrial espionage & sabotage, disregard for IP and so on. That's not to say it never will be, but right now, for example the UK has recently been running around trying to set up cyber security arrangements as a reaction to the behaviour of the Russian and Chinese states.

If Britain is so powerful, why has Russia felt safe to murder at least two ex-spies in such public demonstrations of contempt- one using a radiological weapon and the other a nerve weapon?

 

[SpookyFrank]

Some people have weird ideas about how much power the UK has these days dont they? Just because we are not at the peak of the British Empires powers, and some of the loss of international power had to be pointed out via things like Suez all those years ago, doesnt mean we fell off the charts in the subsequent decades.

In addition to the things you point out, we might compare our defence budget to that of Russia and see that they are not in completely different leagues. Or take note of how Russia has not failed to recognise our Atlantic Bridge/US Proxy role. Or our position in the ranks of global arms dealing. Or our focus on cyber warfare stuff including flogging related products to other countries. Or our loud role in NATO. Or our permanent seat on the UN security council.

When comparing military spending it's worth remembering that while maybe 10% of what the UK government spends on anything disappears between the sofa cushions of corruption, in Russia that figure is going to be a lot higher.

 

[fakeplasticgirl]

Russian Embassy, UK ‏Verified account @RussianEmbassy 23h23 hours ago
The temperature of

relations drops to

, but we are not afraid of cold weather.

Russian embassy having a laugh on twitter.

 

[SpookyFrank]

and that's very useful for keeping Gibraltar or Argentina in check, but Russia is taking no notice.

There's a line and Putin knows where it is. He's not going to march his army into Warsaw tomorrow morning, much as I'm sure it would amuse him to do so.

The fact there's a line at all is a result of US, European etc military power. Putin has a certain amount of wiggle room for international shenanigans because he's the head of a regime based on outright criminality and he doesn't need to worry about domestic opposition, but that same business model that lets him act the big man is sucking the life out of Russia.

 

[rabbit stew]

Makes you think what exactly? There's little that could make you types ever think.

Textbook pre election false flag.

 

[existentialist]

Textbook pre election false flag.

Tell me: do you poke holes in the tinfoil for your ears, or do you just wrap it round them?

 

[fakeplasticgirl]

Salisbury conveiniently close to Porton Down , Makes you think.

Makes you think what?

 

[newbie]

Some people have weird ideas about how much power the UK has these days dont they? Just because we are not at the peak of the British Empires powers, and some of the loss of international power had to be pointed out via things like Suez all those years ago, doesnt mean we fell off the charts in the subsequent decades.

In addition to the things you point out, we might compare our defence budget to that of Russia and see that they are not in completely different leagues. Or take note of how Russia has not failed to recognise our Atlantic Bridge/US Proxy role. Or our position in the ranks of global arms dealing. Or our focus on cyber warfare stuff including flogging related products to other countries. Or our loud role in NATO. Or our permanent seat on the UN security council.

All true and it's so obviously all acted as a deterrent. Oh.

This bloke, with or without his daughter, could have been killed very easily and without any fuss. Hit and run, fell off a multistorey, gas explosion... But no, as with Litvivenko they chose a method so obviously state sponsored that no government can ignore it. But the British government had almost no response to Litvivenko and can only huff and puff about this one.

So i go back to my original question, how can Britain respond to this in a way that will achieve anything? If it can't- and that clown Johnson not going to the world cup really isn't much of a response- then there really isn't any power, is there?

 

[Teaboy]

Makes you think what?

Yesterday the same unhinged loon was claiming that to stop minting pennies and 2p's would lead directly to a human micro-chipping dystopia. Another shambolic fucknugget for the ages.

 

[existentialist]

Makes you think what?

From the way our rabbity friend posted, it sounds as if things that make him think don't happen very often...

 

[butchersapron]

Textbook pre election false flag.

yes

 

[newbie]

There's a line and Putin knows where it is. He's not going to march his army into Warsaw tomorrow morning, much as I'm sure it would amuse him to do so.

Sure.

But there is a huge gulf between symbolic power outreach and starting the third world war.

 

[2hats]

Yesterday the same unhinged loon was claiming that to stop minting pennies and 2p's would lead directly to a human micro-chipping dystopia. Another shambolic fucknugget for the ages.

Are they using a legal name?

 

[andysays]

Textbook pre election false flag.

Do you lot actually have a textbook which guides you through this stuff?

Is it available on Amazon, or if not can you provide a link to somewhere else I could buy one?

 

[agricola]

If Britain is so powerful, why has Russia felt safe to murder at least two ex-spies in such public demonstrations of contempt- one using a radiological weapon and the other a nerve weapon?

TBH I don't think power comes into it, that is a matter of what people are willing to do. We did very little after Litvinenko was murdered, very little after MH-17 was shot down and May proposed doing very little yesterday; I'd imagine the Russian assessment before carrying out this poisoning was that we would do very little about it.

 

[tim]

So i go back to my original question, how can Britain respond to this in a way that will achieve anything? If it can't- and that clown Johnson not going to the world cup really isn't much of a response- then there really isn't any power, is there?

Britain is a rather abstract concept. Abstract concepts are not very good at responding to anything. The British Government is the political entity from whom one would expect a response and they are responding in a predictable, but from their perspective sensible, way to this, presumably unexpected, stroke of good-fortune. This is a gift-horse whose mouth they are not going to give a detailed dental examination.

 

[newbie]

TBH I don't think power comes into it, that is a matter of what people are willing to do. We did very little after Litvinenko was murdered, very little after MH-17 was shot down and May proposed doing very little yesterday; I'd imagine the Russian assessment before carrying out this poisoning was that we would do very little about it.

yes, I think that's about right. It's possible there's a frantic cyber battle (or something) going on behind the scenes, but from what we're told, Russia can muder in the UK with impugnity.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

yes, I think that's about right. It's possible there's a frantic cyber battle (or something) going on behind the scenes, but from what we're told, Russia can muder in the UK with impugnity.

The UK could murder with impunity in Russia is it were so minded.

No two nuclear states are going to go to war over the murder of traitors and ex-pat thieves.

So what can any state do beyond a few sanctions or minor boycotts?

 

[tim]

when the British government wants to make a point by publicly killing British citizens abroad they choose to do so in places like Syria, Iraq and Gibraltar. Russia appears to choose Britain. Possibly the choice is a way of showing respect for the host country's strength and power.

I mean, I take you point, but I'm not sure Putin sees the power balance in quite the same light.

Flamboyant acts of political violence are not culturally acceptable within our society, even though it is thought acceptable and even found amusing when others behave in such a manner. The British state has and does kill people but generally in a more conventional way.

 

[newbie]

The UK could murder with impunity in Russia is it were so minded.

No two nuclear states are going to go to war over the murder of traitors and ex-pat thieves.

So what can any state do beyond a few sanctions or minor boycotts?

the same as when a foreign power interferes in an important election, expel a few diplomats/spies and make lots of huffing puffing noises.

I see our defence secretary has said "Russia should go away and shut up". Just about sums it up.

 

[tim]

Enough nuclear weapons to obliterate all life on Earth still counts as power IMO. Ditto one of the world's only blue water navies.

And we know that our great navy is as well led now as it was when Victoria was on the throne

 

[rabbit stew]

Yesterday the same unhinged loon was claiming that to stop minting pennies and 2p's would lead directly to a human micro-chipping dystopia. Another shambolic fucknugget for the ages.

'Look at the fucknugget thinking differently to us'