Another Malaysian airliner crashed in Ukraine

[savoloysam]

That's shocking stuff right there

 

[quiquaquo]

BBC reporting that altitude makes it more likely to have been shot down by a fighter as mobile SAM needs radar at that altitude.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Oh Christ, not another one

 

[mauvais]

What with how those things (SAM radars) operate, and how many satellites and of what type are probably watching the area round the clock already, its probably known already who fired it, and from where.

I think that's probably an overly optimistic view of military capability. They might know when and where a large missile was launched, since such things are probably still interesting to somebody, but I don't know whether they'd pick up a SAM. I bet they don't know who fired it, or exactly what it was, which would probably tell them about its origins.

 

[editor]

With this kind of high tech kit, you're presumably going to know the difference between a large passenger jet and a fighter plane at, which makes this act even more despicable.

 

[quiquaquo]

With this kind of high tech kit, you're presumably going to know the difference between a large passenger jet and a fighter plane at, which makes this act even more despicable.

Assuming there wasn't a military plane right behind it using it as cover.

 

[agricola]

I think that's probably an overly optimistic view of military capability. They might know when and where a large missile was launched, since such things are probably still interesting to somebody, but I don't know whether they'd pick up a SAM. I bet they don't know who fired it, or exactly what it was, which would probably tell them about its origins.

The missile itself yes, but I was on about the radar signals of the system tracking and locking on to the airliner itself. It is perhaps significant that they have already reporting the type of missile used.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

With this kind of high tech kit, you're presumably going to know the difference between a large passenger jet and a fighter plane at, which makes this act even more despicable.

Russia has form for this, see Korean Air 007

 

[editor]

Assuming there wasn't a military plane right behind it using it as cover.

I would have thought the pilot of the Malaysian jet would have noticed that a long time ago.

 

[mauvais]

With this kind of high tech kit, you're presumably going to know the difference between a large passenger jet and a fighter plane at, which makes this act even more despicable.

So far whoever it is has been mostly shooting down transports and slow fighters.

The missile itself yes, but I was on about the radar signals of the system tracking and locking on to the airliner itself. It is perhaps significant that they have already reporting the type of missile used.

That's what I mean - I don't think they have any idea, unless e.g. they know what arms the rebels have been using.

 

[agricola]

With this kind of high tech kit, you're presumably going to know the difference between a large passenger jet and a fighter plane at, which makes this act even more despicable.

True, but that type of kit is designed to be operated as part of a comprehensive air defence system in wartime. They arent meant to be used by themselves (ie: without a link to someone telling them what to fire at, whats civilian etc), in an area that has a lot of civilian activity, by people who really dont know what they are doing.

That said, the Vincennes incident demonstrates that all manner of safeguards dont work if the person in charge is an idiot.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

That said, the Vincennes incident demonstrates that all manner of safeguards dont work if the person in charge is an idiot.

Who then gets feted by a US government who puzzle over why PA103 was targeted.

 

[kebabking]

Isn't 30,000 feet high for a missile? Not in anyone's interest to shoot down a passenger plane surely. RIP to poor victims and their loved ones.

nah, both Ukraine and Russia are awash with long range SAM's, its part of Soviet/Red Army operational doctrine. 60-70,000ft is getting towards tops, but 30,000ft is easypeasy. most less sophisticated stuff couldn't tell the difference on radar between an airliner and a fighter, and certainly not between a cargo aircraft and an airliner...

theres a system called 'Identification Friend or Foe' that milirary radar and communication systems use to determine who is who, but whether this aircraft was equipped with it, or the radar/missile system uses it, or had it switched on, or even ignored it, is a question for others...

 

[xenon]

The Malasian Airlines people must be wondering what they have done to deserve this .... again ....

Sounds like a missile. Don't know if that will be much relief to my mate and his family flying this airline to KL next week...

 

[purves grundy]

Fucking terrible

I did the same route a few weeks back.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Sky news reporting "Buk ground-to-air missile"

295 souls on board

 

[mauvais]

theres a system called 'Identification Friend or Foe' that milirary radar and communication systems use to determine who is who, but whether this aircraft was equipped with it, or the radar/missile system uses it, or had it switched on, or even ignored it, is a question for others...

Commercial airliners don't have IFF. They do have transponders though. This means that e.g. military aircraft don't show up on civil ATC radar, and it also means the military aren't always adept at identifying civil traffic - like the Vincennes incident.

 

[Mr.Bishie]

Shit news

How long has that airspace been closed? You say you did it a few weeks ago pg?

 

[Yossarian]

What level of incompetence does it take for anybody to route a passenger jet anywhere near eastern Ukraine?

 

[kebabking]

the missile system blamed (by Ukraine) is the SA-17 GRIZZLY - both Russia and Ukraine have them. you can identify missiles in flight from their flight characteristcs and the exact frequencies/power etc.. of the radars.

 

[Barking_Mad]

Why fly a commercial passenger jet over a warzone at a height that makes it a target for missiles?

 

[Barking_Mad]

Note the earlier report that said the plane descended before being shot down.

 

[mauvais]

Why fly a commercial passenger jet over a warzone at a height that makes it a target for missiles?

What route or altitude do you propose? Are you going to avoid Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran, Pakistan, Syria?

Note the earlier report that said the plane descended before being shot down.

I saw one that said it was last seen at 10,000ft. It didn't say it was before being hit.

 

[joustmaster]

I would have thought the pilot of the Malaysian jet would have noticed that a long time ago.

i like the idea of the pilot having a rearview mirror.

 

[editor]

From the Independent:

295 people have reportedly died after a Malaysian passenger aircraft crashed after being shot down near the Russian border in eastern Ukraine on Thursday, according to an adviser to Ukraine's Interior Minister.

The commercial Boeing airliner was flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur, a source told the Interfax news agency.

Anton Gerashenko, an aide to the Ukrainian Interior Minister, wrote on his Facebook page that the plane was flying at an altitude of 33,000 feet over eastern Ukraine when it was hit by a missile fired from a Buk launcher and landed near the city of Donetsk - a stronghold of pro-Russian rebels.

A similar launcher was reported by journalists near the eastern Ukrainian town of Snizhne earlier today.

The aircraft involved is understood to be a Boeing 777 with flight number MH17, which departed from Amsterdam at 12.14am local time, 15 minutes alter than scheduled, according to flight records.

It was expected to arrive in Malaysia at 6:10am local time, but did enter Russian airspace when it was expected to, a Russian aviation source told Reuters.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...ng-295-people-crashes-in-ukraine-9612882.html

 

[kittyP]

Very sad.

 

[TheHoodedClaw]

Why fly a commercial passenger jet over a warzone at a height that makes it a target for missiles?

Looking on Flightradar24, an A380 going from Heathrow to Singapore took a big bodyserve to avoid that area - otherwise it would likely have been in the same corrider. But it's a busy route, even now.

 

[editor]

i like the idea of the pilot having a rearview mirror.

Well, that and radar.

 

[2hats]

I would have thought the pilot of the Malaysian jet would have noticed that a long time ago.

Doubtful. It's fairly easy to trail a commercial air liner in a fighter jet without getting clocked by the flight crew. QRA intercepts of air liners occur all the time without any of the occupants realising.

 

[Spymaster]

With this kind of high tech kit, you're presumably going to know the difference between a large passenger jet and a fighter plane at, which makes this act even more despicable.

It's highly unlikely anyone's knowingly downed a passenger jet. If it has been shot down, someone's mistaken it for something else.