Angela Merkel new German Chancellor

[mears]

Ah, but you claimed it was a good indicator of "standard of living", did you not?

A mean or medium of annual production divided over an entire national population may be a good way to "compare the economic prosperity of nation states", but it is not a good gauge of the "standard of living" within or between those nation-states. There are far too many factors (differentials in price, credit availability, utility costs to name but a few) that you'd have to take into account for it to ever have that function.

Come on now, Gross Domestic product works well. But thats fine, Purchase Power Parity, PPI, is that what you want? I mean, you again never specify what is better. Again, what should we use? UN Human development index?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_Human_Development_Index#Top_thirty_countries

In any of them you will probably not find Germany as having a higher standard of living than the US, and I know thats what this is all about.

Germany has a lower standard of living than either Britian or the US and a higer unemployment rate. Germany is getting increasingly old, their pension obligations will continue to rise, Angela Mekel and the German people have some decisions to make.

Its ok dude. Do you see me going after the German government? Its really more of a critique. And Germany is worth talking about, its an important nation with a big economy.

Now they have a women Chancellor from the east. Germany is truly one again. Ein Volk ein Reich, yes? Good luck to her. She will need to take on the unions who represent those fortunate enough to have one of those good jobs.

And why should someone with 4 to 6 weeks paid vacation, free healthcare, and matching pension contributions want change. Why should they make sacrifices to curb unemployment over 10%. I mean there are only Mc Jobs out there anyway.

 

[Pickman's model]

mears

normally i would encourage americans to travel, to see more of the world. but in your case, please stay in america. i won't answer for your safety should you come to europe.

 

[mears]

mears

normally i would encourage americans to travel, to see more of the world. but in your case, please stay in america. i won't answer for your safety should you come to europe.

Sorry dude, I have been to Europe. And yes, I am still a Republican after viewing the amazing spectacle of continental Europe. Hard to believe I know. Maybe Europeans should travel to America and learn a thing or two about the absorption of our immigrants. Actually not immigrants but those who were born in Britian, France or Germany for instance.

Some of these lads blew themselves up in London, some rioted in France.

Maybe its because they are not white. Actually after traveling to Europe I'm certain that is why they are feeling so isolated and angry these days. One only has to listen to a German or Frenchman or an Italian in Milan talk about those Turks and Morrocans.

 

[TAE]

Again, what should we use?

How about child poverty?
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/eco_chi_pov

 

[fishfingerer]

US prison population - 2,100,000
Rate (per 100,000 of national population) - 726

German prison population - 80,413
Rate (per 100,000 of national population) - 97


Why so criminals in the US if everything's so groovy Mears?

 

[mears]

I agree, mears. It's a very, very good indicator!

10 burger-flippers earning £200,00 each per week = £2,000
10 footballers earning £80,000 each per week = £800,000
Average wage in our little 20-person group = £40,100 per week
See? Nobody's doing anything essentially productive, but everybody's happy.

I always knew this "eekanommiks" caper was a piece of piss!

MsG

So what do we use to measure standard of living?

 

[mears]

Again, what should we use?

How about child poverty?
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/eco_chi_pov

"index is defined as the share of the children living in the households with income below 50% of the national median."

The "National Median" sport, but nice try try.

And why are you talking about the US on a thread about Angela Merkel?

Oh, I forgot. All America all the time.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Come on now, Gross Domestic product works well. But thats fine, Purchase Power Parity, PPI, is that what you want? I mean, you again never specify what is better. Again, what should we use? UN Human development index?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_Human_Development_Index#Top_thirty_countries

In any of them you will probably not find Germany as having a higher standard of living than the US, and I know thats what this is all about.

Just how do you "know thats what this is all about"?
It certainly hasn't been stated by myself, and not by other posters either IIRC.
So, is this just another preamble to you reiterating your tedious chant of "all America all the time"?

This isn't about Germany not having a higher standard of living than America (anyone with half a brain can calculate that the richest country in the world will come out "on top" of any standard of living index if an average is taken, bugsy7 has already illustrated that in one of his posts), and the fact that you so readily assume that this is all to do with jealousy is a fair indicator to your level of analysis.

Germany has a lower standard of living than either Britian or the US and a higer unemployment rate. Germany is getting increasingly old, their pension obligations will continue to rise, Angela Mekel and the German people have some decisions to make.

I see it would be a waste of time reiterating some of the structural and historic reasons for Germany's current problems, or reiterating why any demographic statistics for a united Germany would be flawed for at least the next 20 years.

Its ok dude. Do you see me going after the German government? Its really more of a critique. And Germany is worth talking about, its an important nation with a big economy.

"Critique"?
I don't think so.

Now they have a women Chancellor from the east. Germany is truly one again. Ein Volk ein Reich, yes?

Only a halfwit like you would use a sullied phrase like that

Good luck to her. She will need to take on the unions who represent those fortunate enough to have one of those good jobs.

You're projecting your American's-eye view on a situation where it doesn't fit. Something like 20% (IIRC) of US jobs are unionised, and they tend to be skilled and semi-skilled labour. In Germany the figure is far higher, and spreads throughout the employment sector, from manual labour to management. Do a bit of research before you sound off. Medium to large business concerns have constitutional obligations to operate within das Mitbestimmungsgesetz, laws mandating co-determination of practice and policy between management and workers, with an employee's representative (der Arbeitnehmervertreter) or often more than one, sitting on der Ausichtsrat, the board of trustees.

And why should someone with 4 to 6 weeks paid vacation, free healthcare, and matching pension contributions want change. Why should they make sacrifices to curb unemployment over 10%. I mean there are only Mc Jobs out there anyway.

1) Paid vacations are paid for through a contributory scheme, not funded from profits.
2) "Free healthcare" is not free, it is a partial refund scheme much like your own health insurance.
3) The "matching contributions" system is a fairly widespread practice, absent to a large degree only in the USA. An unkind soul might think that you are slightly envious.
4) If we take into account the usual statistical sleight-of-hand indulged in by government statistics agencies and/or by the bodies that feed them data, your own country has an equivalent unemployment problem, does it not?
And of course, unlike the USA, Germany is currently riding an export boom and has pretty much stabilised its unemployment figures, whereas the US...

Feel free to utter more laughable free market fundamentalist gibberish though, it's quite amusing.

 

[mears]

Just how do you "know thats what this is all about"?
It certainly hasn't been stated by myself, and not by other posters either IIRC.
So, is this just another preamble to you reiterating your tedious chant of "all America all the time"?

This isn't about Germany not having a higher standard of living than America (anyone with half a brain can calculate that the richest country in the world will come out "on top" of any standard of living index if an average is taken, bugsy7 has already illustrated that in one of his posts), and the fact that you so readily assume that this is all to do with jealousy is a fair indicator to your level of analysis.

I see it would be a waste of time reiterating some of the structural and historic reasons for Germany's current problems, or reiterating why any demographic statistics for a united Germany would be flawed for at least the next 20 years.

"Critique"?
I don't think so.

Only a halfwit like you would use a sullied phrase like that

You're projecting your American's-eye view on a situation where it doesn't fit. Something like 20% (IIRC) of US jobs are unionised, and they tend to be skilled and semi-skilled labour. In Germany the figure is far higher, and spreads throughout the employment sector, from manual labour to management. Do a bit of research before you sound off. Medium to large business concerns have constitutional obligations to operate within das Mitbestimmungsgesetz, laws mandating co-determination of practice and policy between management and workers, with an employee's representative (der Arbeitnehmervertreter) or often more than one, sitting on der Ausichtsrat, the board of trustees.

1) Paid vacations are paid for through a contributory scheme, not funded from profits.
2) "Free healthcare" is not free, it is a partial refund scheme much like your own health insurance.
3) The "matching contributions" system is a fairly widespread practice, absent to a large degree only in the USA. An unkind soul might think that you are slightly envious.
4) If we take into account the usual statistical sleight-of-hand indulged in by government statistics agencies and/or by the bodies that feed them data, your own country has an equivalent unemployment problem, does it not?
And of course, unlike the USA, Germany is currently riding an export boom and has pretty much stabilised its unemployment figures, whereas the US...

Feel free to utter more laughable free market fundamentalist gibberish though, it's quite amusing.

Just like an altenative to capitalism. What is a good way to measure standard of living if not GDP per capita? You don't need to ramble on. just one or two sentences.

But of course you have no clue.

 

[fishfingerer]

What about my prison question mears?

 

[Yossarian]

Maybe Europeans should travel to America and learn a thing or two about the absorption of our immigrants.

Immigrants like Jose Padilla?

 

[mears]

Its not that you people are dumb, justy not well read.

The study, "The EU vs. USA," was done by a pair of economists--Fredrik Bergstrom and Robert Gidehag--for the Swedish think tank Timbro. It found that if Europe were part of the U.S., only tiny Luxembourg could rival the richest of the 50 American states in gross domestic product per capita. Most European countries would rank below the U.S. average, as the chart below shows.

But what about equality? Well, the percentage of Americans living below the poverty line has dropped to 12% from 22% since 1959. In 1999, 25% of American households were considered "low income," meaning they had an annual income of less than $25,000. If Sweden--the very model of a modern welfare state--were judged by the same standard, about 40% of its households would be considered low-income.

In other words poverty is relative, and in the U.S. a large 45.9% of the "poor" own their homes, 72.8% have a car and almost 77% have air conditioning, which remains a luxury in most of Western Europe. The average living space for poor American households is 1,200 square feet. In Europe, the average space for all households, not just the poor, is 1,000 square feet.

http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110005242

I know it hurts. Run along now

 

[TAE]

"index is defined as the share of the children living in the households with income below 50% of the national median."

The "National Median" sport, but nice try try.

And? I thought this was about abusing statistics to make them say whatever you want.

And why are you talking about the US on a thread about Angela Merkel?

Oh, I forgot. All America all the time.

That might just be because in your initial post it sounded very much like you want Germany to be more like America:

 

[Yossarian]

Hard to believe I know. Maybe Europeans should travel to America and learn a thing or two about the absorption of our immigrants. Actually not immigrants but those who were born in Britian, France or Germany for instance.

Some of these lads blew themselves up in London, some rioted in France.

Maybe its because they are not white. Actually after traveling to Europe I'm certain that is why they are feeling so isolated and angry these days.

Yeah, because non-white people in the United States feeling dispossessed and rioting is completely unheard of in America, that world-wide beacon of understanding and good race relations, isn't it?

 

[Yossarian]

. The average living space for poor American households is 1,200 square feet. In Europe, the average space for all households, not just the poor, is 1,000 square feet.

The population density is much, much higher in Europe than in America, you damn fool, what the fuck do you expect?

 

[mears]

What about my prison question mears?

I would say the US locks up too many people. Its a big problem. The US has it's problems.

And so does Germany.

 

[mears]

The population density is much, much higher in Europe than in America, you damn fool, what the fuck do you expect?

Maybe, but thats poor American households as well. And really its worth repeating, yes?

"But what about equality? Well, the percentage of Americans living below the poverty line has dropped to 12% from 22% since 1959. In 1999, 25% of American households were considered "low income," meaning they had an annual income of less than $25,000. If Sweden--the very model of a modern welfare state--were judged by the same standard, about 40% of its households would be considered low-income."

Bye bye

 

[Yossarian]

You leaving? See ya later, fuckface.

 

[mears]

You leaving? See ya later, fuckface.

Of course I'm not leaving. This is the time when you all run out of any substantive remarks and resort to personal insults, because at the end its all you have.

 

[Yossarian]

I gave your "points" all the attention they deserved - insulting you is just a little bonus, you silly cunt.

 

[TeeJay]

We've been dancing this dance with mears for a couple of years. He contends that GDP is a "great" measurement of standard of living. When he's been taxed on the fact that GDP gives an aggregate figure which does not provide a realistic reflection of the standard of living of all members of a population, but merely an "average" across different sectors of the populace he usually (as you've probably noticed he does when any hard questions are asked of him) runs away.
Add to that the reality that GDP measures only productivity, it doesn't, for example, measure the resource (mineral, environmental and human) depletion required to achieve that productivity, and only an idiot would use it to gauge anything other than the measurement it is an acronym for.

So how do you measure these things (alongside people's quality of life/income)?

 

[mears]

So how do you measure these things (alongside people's quality of life/income)?

This question is straighforward and to the point.

He just can't answer it.

 

[nino_savatte]

This question is straighforward and to the point.

He just can't answer it.

I wouldn't start celebrating right away, smears. You're often premature and I see nothing different here. In fact, you avoided certain questions and answered others with pat replies.

 

[nino_savatte]

Sorry dude, I have been to Europe. And yes, I am still a Republican after viewing the amazing spectacle of continental Europe. Hard to believe I know. Maybe Europeans should travel to America and learn a thing or two about the absorption of our immigrants. Actually not immigrants but those who were born in Britian, France or Germany for instance.

Some of these lads blew themselves up in London, some rioted in France.

Maybe its because they are not white. Actually after traveling to Europe I'm certain that is why they are feeling so isolated and angry these days. One only has to listen to a German or Frenchman or an Italian in Milan talk about those Turks and Morrocans.

You may have been to Europe but I would wager that you never once engaged with ordinary people nor did you bother to speak any of the languages. How can I say this? Your posts betray your level of ignorance and regardless of whether or not you have been to Europe, the fact remains that you can only see others through the prism of your own prejudices and cultural influences....as is evidenced by this post.

In case you've forgotten, many Europeans travel more than the average American. Furthermore, less than 25% of Americans own a passport.

It seems your comment about Europeans needing to travel more has just been shot full of holes.

 

[fishfingerer]

I would say the US locks up too many people. Its a big problem. The US has it's problems.

And so does Germany.

That's an unsatisfactory response.

 

[ViolentPanda]

So how do you measure these things (alongside people's quality of life/income)?

If you want an honest reflection of how a state and its population are doing in comparison to other nations then you have several stumbling blocks. Here are a few of them;

You need those disparate nations to use a unitary data collection, collation and statistical analysis system.
You need a unitary system for counting and quantifing employment/unemployment.
You'd require a methodology to balance all inputs against output (weighing environmental costs alongside material costs, for example).
You'd require a methodology to balance income scales in disparate nation-states with each other.

Mears is basically saying that GDP is the only game in town. If that's the case then the game isn't worth bothering with, because unless you are only interested in production (and I suspect mears is) then GDP tells you so little that to extrapolate an average standard of living from it is ridiculous.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Just like an altenative to capitalism. What is a good way to measure standard of living if not GDP per capita? You don't need to ramble on. just one or two sentences.

See my reply to Teejay

But of course you have no clue.

You shouldn't project your own inadequacy onto others.

I note with no little concern that your "clue" doesn't extend to be able to address or even acknowledge any of the points I've made. I suspect that they are outside of your ideological boundaries.

 

[ViolentPanda]

This question is straighforward and to the point.

The question is straightforward but has no point. You know this, but are unwilling to admit it. GDP does not accurately reflect standard of living, you have been unable to explain how it does, but continue to insist that it does. What it does do is give a vague reflection of the putative "standard of living" for a mythical "average" person.

He just can't answer it.

I (among others) have answered it over and over again. You can't rely on a single measurement taken in isolation from any other factors to provide the data you're talking about, you need to assess and balance different factors and data.

Carry on insisting that GDP plays the role you claim for it, that's fine by me.

Don't expect to be taken seriously by anyone except the minority (which includes very few economists) who share your particular reading of economics, though.

 

[mears]

The question is straightforward but has no point. You know this, but are unwilling to admit it. GDP does not accurately reflect standard of living, you have been unable to explain how it does, but continue to insist that it does. What it does do is give a vague reflection of the putative "standard of living" for a mythical "average" person.

I (among others) have answered it over and over again. You can't rely on a single measurement taken in isolation from any other factors to provide the data you're talking about, you need to assess and balance different factors and data.

Carry on insisting that GDP plays the role you claim for it, that's fine by me.

Don't expect to be taken seriously by anyone except the minority (which includes very few economists) who share your particular reading of economics, though.

My, God you would think you might have a little pride and come up with something. But you can't. Rmember when you criticize everything and everyone you can't even muster some ideas on your own.

 

[mears]

That's an unsatisfactory response.

I'm not sure why you are asking about US prision populations on a thread about Angela Merkel. Don't we talk about America enough?