Anelka's quenelle

[elbows]

Which makes me more than a bit of wary of the pundit in question who apparently specialises in the relationship between the far left and the zionist entity .

His abbreviated CV on several sites does seem to dwell on those areas, but when doing stuff like machine-translating his french wikipedia page, it seems he has done plenty of studies of the far-right too. Here is a not terribly interesting english example of him being interviewed about the National Front a few years back:

http://www.blog.schattenbericht.de/...-makes-ground-interview-with-jean-yves-camus/

Certainly the aspect you've decided to dwell on deserves further exploration. However its largely part of a messy debate that has raged for decades about whether there is a 'new antisemitism', an argument that is fraught with pitfalls and people on all sides who drag it straight to the worst extremes.

Rather than go there, and get bogged down in issues related to Israel, I would rather focus on other aspects of antisemitism and the things that drive it. For example there are reasons why u75 seems to have had more threads where we've had to point out dodgy anti-semitic aspects of peoples stances in recent years, and they certainly aren't popping up because of some recent behaviour by Israel.

Cynicism, both reasonable and excessive, along with inadequate responses to it (e.g. lack of meaningful change), is certainly a big factor. A desire for simple explanations and scapegoats has always seduced some. So any analysis which suggests that some people are attracted to the idea of scapegoating in a manner that lets the actual ideological, economic & political flaws that caused the crisis off the hook, will get my attention. That the economic crisis appears to have been handled in a manner thats propped shit up and been used to further certain agendas that probably give capitalism another cycle of life & profit, has left room for this stuff to fester. Whether events will bring any of it to a head is as uncertain as ever, but in the meantime the momentum and acceptability of certain stuff should be watched closely and countered where possible. Meaningful alternatives would be nice but cynicism has extended in so many directions that suffocation is rampant.

 

[FNG]

My reference was solely to Camus, not the salute or the prick comedian . Your trying to drag me into supporting Camus analysis, which I was questioning and saying I was wary of. Again, he personally ascribes an anti semite as titular leader of a wider anti zionist, anti Nato, anti imperialist leftist platform .

Unfortunately Dieudonnehe is Camus straw man made flesh,he is tying his very public anti-semitism to an anti-establishment ticket,whilst simultaneously forming electoral pacts with Sorel and co. Smearing a vast swathe of people on the left in the process.
http://nemesistv.info/video/7B59DE8...n-soral-dieudonne-vincent-lapierre-zohra-mahi
http://www.wat.tv/video/dieudonne-hommage-hugo-chavez-5tmi5_5djiz_.html

Aledgedly his next film "explores" jewish involvement in the slave trade

 

[revol68]

if you read the guy its not the gesture or even the comedian hes really giving out about . The focus of his entire attack is a broad left wing base of opinion. Anti NATO, Anti Washington, Anti Zionist, Pro Chavez ..himself accused of anti semitism..Pro Syrian, Pro Palestinian. And hes telling them theyre anti semitic without realising they are . Mainly because of what theyre against ...which he ascribes...on their behalf ... as being down to some conspiracy theory about the jews controlling everything.

So, plainly if you wish to demonstrate you dont hold this anti semtic cosnpiracy theory youd be pro zionist and pro washington, anti Syria etc instead.

Has it eve occured to you that these issues framed in such a way are bugbears for euro fash, that euro nationalism isn't just moronic bootboys like the NF but has a particular analysis that essentially replaces class with national units... You'd fit right in, like a good little 3rd positionist.

 

[Lemon Eddy]

Fuck me, this is depressing. Want to run a public campaign of antisemitism? Fine, just claim it's a gesture against the "global financial elite" and watch as people lap it up and repeat it en masse, even as your dumber fellow brethren give the game away by posting photos of them making the same gesture outside holocaust memorials, a Jewish school that was shot up, Anne Frank's house. Hell, you'll even have people who claim to be antifascist defending you in forums...sorry, I'm attributing too much honesty to them, they're not defending, they're just asking questions, or examining the context, or concerned about the human rights angle.

Fuck. Just fuck. At least fascists and their apologists used to be candid in their beliefs.

 

[phildwyer]

Fuck me, this is depressing. Want to run a public campaign of antisemitism? Fine, just claim it's a gesture against the "global financial elite" and watch as people lap it up and repeat it en masse, even as your dumber fellow brethren

Excuse me?

Whose "dumber fellow brethren?"

 

[redsquirrel]

Do you think they ignore his jibes about gas chambers? His standing with a known fascist in elections? His giving Faurisson the award? The French far-right vote is in the millions, that Dieudonne might have the 'support' of a few thousand is hardly unlikely or impossible given that is what he is now looking at and trying to bring along with his 'synthesis' of Left/Right.

But Fed they are obviously just anti-imperialists.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

are all these young french people meant to be Fascists now? The symbol seems to have different meanings to different people.

It seems pretty clear what it means to the gurning ghouls on the photos posted earlier next to holocaust memorials.

These people though are apparently taking the piss out of the Cabinet Minister in their midst.

I am curious how it apparently means something entirely different to these young people - and (from links posted on here) to many more.

Like many symbols, it's meaning would appear to depend on who is doing it, where and why... and who is interpreting it's meaning and where and why.

Sometimes kids fuck around like that.

Doesn't change the nastiness of the symbol they're fucking around with.

 

[Lemon Eddy]

Excuse me?

Whose "dumber fellow brethren?"

For most people you'd think, in a thread discussing the inventor and patent holder for the gesture, just whose brethren I might be referring to. Tell you what, in consideration of any issues you may have with comprehension, let me repost the pictures already presented in this thread.

Here's the inventor, with some of his pals:

And here's one of those people making the same "Honest it's not about the jews" gesture at the Berlin holocaust memorial...

I eagerly await the next installment in the "just asking questions" show.

 

[phildwyer]

For most people you'd think, in a thread discussing the inventor and patent holder for the gesture, just whose brethren I might be referring to.

I eagerly await the next installment in the "just asking questions" show.

Alright mi bredren.

Who are Anelka's "brethren?"

 

[Lemon Eddy]

Alright mi bredren.

Who are Anelka's "brethren?"

Why phil, I even gave you a picture example. You know, the white skin head doing the "anti-global financial elite" gesture at that quintessential example of an elite financial site: a holocaust memorial. And if you took 2 minutes, you could have a look at some other examples of fellow ideological believers making similar gestures against the establishment. I like this one, for example, outside the Anne Frank musueum:

 

[Lemon Eddy]

Oh, and noting that you've already tried a really quite impressive implication of racism on the grounds that brethren is a common greeting in Jamaican patois, I'd best head off the rather predictable claim of sexism by posting an example of a woman making a similarly non-jewish related whatsoever use of the gesture:

 

[phildwyer]

Why phil, I even gave you a picture example. You know, the white skin head doing the "anti-global financial elite" gesture at that quintessential example of an elite financial site: a holocaust memorial.

So by his "brethren" you meant Nazis?

Seems unlikely on a number of levels.

I thought you meant Muslims, or maybe worse.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Sigh.

 

[FNG]

not really
seeing as you were the one who introduced patois to the conversation
what he said

even as your dumber fellow brethren give the game away by posting photos of them making the same gesture outside holocaust memorials, a Jewish school that was shot up, Anne Frank's house.

Anelka didn't do any of that.In fact he is obviously talking about Diuedonne and his fellow travellers on the far right,who Diuedonne has cosied up to.
Anelka doesn't even speak in cod patois ffs

 

[Lemon Eddy]

So by his "brethren" you meant Nazis?

Seems unlikely on a number of levels.

I thought you meant Muslims, or maybe worse.

Disingenuity != ingenuity phil, at some stage you really should learn the difference.

 

[phildwyer]

the far right

Again, I'm not sure what you mean. Does Dieudonne call himself a rightist?

 

[phildwyer]

Disingenuity != ingenuity phil, at some stage you really should learn the difference.

No, I really did think that's what you meant.

And I remain unsure.

I am however sure that you did not think you meant what I thought you meant. If that's any consolation.

 

[Maurice Picarda]

No, I really did think that's what you meant.

And I remain unsure.

I am however sure that you did not think you meant what I thought you meant. If that's any consolation.

Why can't you admit that you jumped to a wrong and unpleasant conclusion and apologise properly?

 

[phildwyer]

Why can't you admit that you jumped to a wrong and unpleasant conclusion and apologise properly?

Because Anelka is obviously no brethren of Nazis.

So Lemon did not mean Nazis.

Maybe he meant anti-semites.

 

[MellySingsDoom]

Because Anelka is obviously no brethren of Nazis.

phil - I don't think anyone here is saying that Anelka hangs around with fash. Dioudonne himself is a different matter, though - hanging around with Le Pen senior sure isn't a good move.

 

[phildwyer]

Dioudonne himself is a different matter, though - hanging around with Le Pen senior sure isn't a good move.

Yes, but then Wiki has him standing as a candidate for an "extreme left-wing" party in 2004.

Sounds to me like he's one of them figures what demonstrate the obsolescence of this C18th left/right metaphor in the C21st.

 

[MellySingsDoom]

Yes, but then Wiki has him standing as a candidate for an "extreme left-wing" party in 2004.

Sounds to me like he's one of them figures what demonstrate the obsolescence of this C18th left/right metaphor in the C21st.

I'd have Dioudonne down as being part of a left/right convergence thing - developing links between traditional leftist concerns and rightist "thinking". None of this is new of course - I'm sure it's been covered here many times in the past - and it'a not a situation unique to France.

 

[Fedayn]

Yes, but then Wiki has him standing as a candidate for an "extreme left-wing" party in 2004.

Which he left within months.

 

[phildwyer]

I'd have Dioudonne down as being part of a left/right convergence thing - developing links between traditional leftist concerns and rightist "thinking". None of this is new of course - I'm sure it's been covered here many times in the past - and it'a not a situation unique to France.

You'd think, wouldn't you, that the new dichotomy would settle around either pro- or anti-capitalist.

But it often seems that "Israel" functions as a surrogate for capital. Not for the first time obv.

 

[phildwyer]

Which he left within months.

Numbers Carlos the Jackal among his supporters, according to Wiki.

Is CtJ on the left or the right?

 

[where to]

Sorry, I thought it was done in the French Cup Final. Dunno where I picked that up from, but I think it was a link posted here.

Would still like to see some wheat from the chaff going on though.

It was a past 16 match agains sochaux. attendence 4500. Not a cup final.

 

[Lemon Eddy]

Because Anelka is obviously no brethren of Nazis

Well if it helps clarify things a bit more phil, I'll happily state that Anelka is not a nazi, and I don't think he's running a public campaign of antisemitism. He's at best an idiot without the decency to apologise for a offensive gesture, and at worst an antisemite, but either way he's just an overpaid idiot with high levels of visibility. Dioudonne on the other hand, whilst also not a nazi, is most certainly scum; unfortunately he's scum that's intelligent enough to muddy the waters surrounding his hate campaign, and claim he's just against the establishment and the financial elite.

 

[Fedayn]

Numbers Carlos the Jackal among his supporters, according to Wiki.

Is CtJ on the left or the right?

Is using Carlos as a 'weathervane' a serious way of looking at what someone is doing what their politics are? Faurisson, Soral and Le Pen are on the fascist Right, they are also supportive of Soral.

 

[phildwyer]

Is using Carlos as a 'weathervane' a serious way of looking at what someone is doing what their politics are? Faurisson, Soral and Le Pen are on the fascist Right, they are also supportive of Soral.

Obviously Dieudonne associates with both the extreme left and the extreme right. He seems to draw support from both too.

So rather than a left or rightist we might call him an "extremist," or perhaps what he calls himself: "anti-establishment."

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

Carlos is certainly an anti-semite