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Anelka's quenelle

Bernard Manning was a racist. That's the similarity, dimwit. Anelka should choose his friends more carefully.

Manning never explicitly promoted a politics of racism. If anything, he went out of his way to make clear that his issues were his own. He even used to make jokes about Martin Webster, along the lines of "some fucking Aryan, a bloke who likes kids".
 
Those who claim that anti-Zionism is never anti-Semitic are idiots. Of course anti-Zionism CAN be used as a tool for promoting anti-Semitism, and of course anti-Zionism IS used as a tool for promoting anti-Semitism. The issue requires people to look beyond the statements made w/r/t to anti-Zionism, to the motive and context in which the statements are made.

Yes but this requires people to look beyond the my team good their team bad mentality. Many seem to struggle with that.
 
anti-zionism has to be the stupidest thing to adopt as world view. It's almost anti-semitic in itself. Anti-capitalism = fine. Explains how the world works, suggests total answers. If you think that's comparable to anti-zionism, that a small group of jews running one state and pulling the strings in others is how the world works, then, you're already fucked.

Anti-zionism as part of a rejection of a) a state (or how it's run in certain cases) or b) the ideology - as part of a wider critique = fine. As that wider critique = dodgy.
 
Manning never explicitly promoted a politics of racism. If anything, he went out of his way to make clear that his issues were his own. He even used to make jokes about Martin Webster, along the lines of "some fucking Aryan, a bloke who likes kids".

Don't tell Frances ffs
 
You mean the variant of the late '60s/early '70s "I'd rather be a Paki than a scouse" that Man U supporters invented? The variant that refers solely to "the Yids", ie.e. Tottenham Hotspur supporters?

Get a fucking grip.

West Ham fans sang the Scouse variant with gusto too didn't they?
 
Yes but this requires people to look beyond the my team good their team bad mentality. Many seem to struggle with that.
<derail>
It's kind of a bugbear with me that people are not taught to think critically during their secondary school years.</derail>
 
Manning never explicitly promoted a politics of racism. If anything, he went out of his way to make clear that his issues were his own. He even used to make jokes about Martin Webster, along the lines of "some fucking Aryan, a bloke who likes kids".

I've already updated my comparison to Manning crossed with Goebbels. Better?
 
Or seems like a lot, because there's a lot of noise made about it, IYSWIM.

Yeah, I'm also going on what I've seen myself though. Its annoying how these people ascribe criticisms of their politics to what 'Zionists' have said about it, ie they assume that people disagreeing is because of some hasbara campaign not because of what people have seen themselves, its like that guy saying the other day that I believed all the bad stuff about Scientology because I'd read it in the tabloid media whereas I've not actually read a newspaper properly in years.
 
You mean the variant of the late '60s/early '70s "I'd rather be a Paki than a scouse" that Man U supporters invented? The variant that refers solely to "the Yids", ie.e. Tottenham Hotspur supporters?

Get a fucking grip.

I’m not sure I need to get a grip of anything thank you.

My reference to the “I’d rather be a Paki than a Yid” was in response to CR post where he said that if WHU fans knew what Anelka was doing there would be “a riot”.

I can’t speak for him but my interpretation of his comment was that there would be an adverse reaction from WHU fans. I merely pointed out that this would be highly unlikely.

By the way, do you have any proof it was Man Utd fans who invented “I’d rather be a Paki than a Scouse” in the 1960s?
 
Those who claim that anti-Zionism is never anti-Semitic are idiots. Of course anti-Zionism CAN be used as a tool for promoting anti-Semitism, and of course anti-Zionism IS used as a tool for promoting anti-Semitism. The issue requires people to look beyond the statements made w/r/t to anti-Zionism, to the motive and context in which the statements are made.

I've never encountered anybody say explicitly anti-Zionism cannot be antisemitic, it's just a general attitude I sense - "well, whatever we do we'll be called as antisemitic... so antisemitism is just a smear that Zionists use against us". I remember somebody saying to me that they've been called antisemitic so much as a result of their pro-Palestinian activism that they no longer take the charge seriously... and I think that's very dodgy territory to be on, it's basically writing away antisemitism and ultimately it becomes a sort of mirrored antisemitism in and of itself, to believe that "antisemitic" is merely a smear used against you, you have to construct a conspiracy around those people you see using the word as a smear and their reasons for doing so.
 
I've never encountered anybody say explicitly anti-Zionism cannot be antisemitic, it's just a general attitude I sense - "well, whatever we do we'll be called as antisemitic... so antisemitism is just a smear that Zionists use against us". I remember somebody saying to me that they've been called antisemitic so much as a result of their pro-Palestinian activism that they no longer take the charge seriously... and I think that's very dodgy territory to be on, it's basically writing away antisemitism and ultimately it becomes a sort of mirrored antisemitism in and of itself, to believe that "antisemitic" is merely a smear used against you, you have to construct a conspiracy around those people you see using the word as a smear and their reasons for doing so.

Oh my god, this.
 
Its a shame because there are people in the PSC etc and doing anti occupation stuff in Israel which is really important. I was in the PSC for a couple of years, there are anti semites involved but they aren't all scum, they aren't all racist wankers, many are dedicated and sincere people with good politics. What I mean is when someone makes anti Zionism the entire focus of their politics and don't give a shit about anything else, or not enough to do anything about it. I oppose Zionism, I don't think I'm a Jew hater in fact I suspect I'm more involved in the Jewish community here than many people here and ironically over the last few years since 'cast lead' etc there is much less of a taboo about criticising Israel than what there used to be. Most Jewish people don't agree with what happens in Israel and unfortunately who benefits from this increase in racism etc is actually the Israeli state.

The problem for PSC being that a relative handful of wankers have made operations by the majority much harder. And how has it been dealt with? In some cases with the anti-Semites being accused of being Zionist agents provocateurs by PSC members! :facepalm:
 
My comments stand. I require more than a tabloid headline and some up-their-own-arses urbanites to convince me that Anelka is 'guilty' of anything.

I tend not to get involved once all the usual suspects troop in, it's pointless.

I'm not willing to participate in the customary shit-throwing fest that these threads rapidly become, I have no compulsion to argue with people I don't like.

I would add that what I said was that the tabloid link in the OP mentioned nazis, if VP wants to claim I accused an urbanite of being a nazi he should report it. Post #18

Were you born stupid, or are you just wilfully so?
I haven't said anything about you accusing an Urbanite of being a Nazi, you fuckwit.

Christ but you're a fucking dimwit twat! Learn to fucking read!! :facepalm:
 
The problem for PSC being that a relative handful of wankers have made operations by the majority much harder. And how has it been dealt with? In some cases with the anti-Semites being accused of being Zionist agents provocateurs by PSC members! :facepalm:

I don't have any more involvement with psc for that reason. I might go on a big demo or sign a petition but that's it. There are some good people involved but anti-semitism doesn't usually get challenged very much. Its a shame mind you. There are some good people involved (and the anti Semites were often the ones who wanted to talk about themselves and not do anything practical)
 
I think some people didn't challenge them as they suspected it wouldn't be worth it. Interestingly the people of Palestinian descent that were in the group didn't really come out with that stuff at all And usually had good politics that I could tell, not really that that shows anything though.
 
He's not saying that all anti-zionists are anti-semites; he's saying that "too often, they are". Which is unarguable.

How do you measure "too often"? Most of the anti-Zionists I've met and/or known (including in my own family) are Jews who are anti-Zionist for a complex of reasons around disagreeing with the principles (if you can call them that) of Herzl-ite Zionism; with the land theft, collective punishment (learned from the Mandate authorities, as well as from the Nazis) and murder practiced by the state of Israel and its antecedent organisations, and with the idea that the subjugation of an "alien" culture is ever a good idea. I grew up going to synagogues where otherwise-intelligent people spoke of "greater Israel" as though it had no human cost. I love my people, but I loath how some use the cloak of our culture to mask their own prejudices - or worse, don't believe that their prejudices are prejudices at all, because they can cite a historical "justification" for "repossessing" the ancient kingdoms of Judea and Samaria.
I utterly agree that some anti-Zionists are anti-Semites masking their anti-Semitism, but they're generally easily fitered from genuine anti-Zionists because of what they say, and the context within which they say it, by anyone who can be arsed to do so.
 
anti-zionism has to be the stupidest thing to adopt as world view. It's almost anti-semitic in itself. Anti-capitalism = fine. Explains how the world works, suggests total answers. If you think that's comparable to anti-zionism, that a small group of jews running one state and pulling the strings in others is how the world works, then, you're already fucked.

Anti-zionism as part of a rejection of a) a state (or how it's run in certain cases) or b) the ideology - as part of a wider critique = fine. As that wider critique = dodgy.

Absolutely. My anti-Zionism extends as far as the actions of a state whose governance is informed through reference to that ideology, and are excused through reference to that ideology. While I might occasionally decry actions elsewhere as assisted by an informal "Jewish lobby", I don't believe such lobbies are supranational and take orders from the state of Israel, my opinion is that informal interest groups lobby in their own and similar interests. That's the nature" of capitalism, as well as of what the merchant classes used to call "enlighted self-interest".
 
How do you measure "too often"? Most of the anti-Zionists I've met and/or known (including in my own family) are Jews who are anti-Zionist for a complex of reasons around disagreeing with the principles (if you can call them that) of Herzl-ite Zionism; with the land theft, collective punishment (learned from the Mandate authorities, as well as from the Nazis) and murder practiced by the state of Israel and its antecedent organisations, and with the idea that the subjugation of an "alien" culture is ever a good idea. I grew up going to synagogues where otherwise-intelligent people spoke of "greater Israel" as though it had no human cost. I love my people, but I loath how some use the cloak of our culture to mask their own prejudices - or worse, don't believe that their prejudices are prejudices at all, because they can cite a historical "justification" for "repossessing" the ancient kingdoms of Judea and Samaria.
I utterly agree that some anti-Zionists are anti-Semites masking their anti-Semitism, but they're generally easily fitered from genuine anti-Zionists because of what they say, and the context within which they say it, by anyone who can be arsed to do so.

Generally speaking, I agree

However, one of the problems with organizations like psc, JfJfP etc is that very frequently some of their members want to give real anti Semites the benefit of the doubt even where they disagree with them and because as Caleb rightly says they've got themselves into a situation where they don't take the idea of anti-semitism seriously any more even when they aren't personally prejudiced themselves. I ended up giving people the benefit of the doubt because they'd done some good in other ways and I was able to like ignore my instincts, also because other people. I liked thought they were sound

Also its possible to be a Zionist and antisemitic at the same time, some people including members of my family manage it quite well
 
I’m not sure I need to get a grip of anything thank you.

My reference to the “I’d rather be a Paki than a Yid” was in response to CR post where he said that if WHU fans knew what Anelka was doing there would be “a riot”.

I can’t speak for him but my interpretation of his comment was that there would be an adverse reaction from WHU fans. I merely pointed out that this would be highly unlikely.

So why would it be highly unlikely? Are we all good fascists who'd accept Anelka's salute in good heart, rather than want to rip him a new arsehole?

By the way, do you have any proof it was Man Utd fans who invented “I’d rather be a Paki than a Scouse” in the 1960s?

Beyond the fact that my dad heard it around '71 at a Liverpool/Man U game he attended while docked there? No.
 
My comments stand. I require more than a tabloid headline and some up-their-own-arses urbanites to convince me that Anelka is 'guilty' of anything.

I tend not to get involved once all the usual suspects troop in, it's pointless.

I'm not willing to participate in the customary shit-throwing fest that these threads rapidly become, I have no compulsion to argue with people I don't like.

I would add that what I said was that the tabloid link in the OP mentioned nazis, if VP wants to claim I accused an urbanite of being a nazi he should report it. Post #18

You're a fucking idiot, carry on back-slapping yourself. The evidence was provided without any recourse to tabloidese/tabloidesque claims. The only shit round here is the stuff you wade in daily.
 
Thought it was Chelsea with the major fash following, although I do know a Chelsea fan who is a socialist
 
Thought it was Chelsea with the major fash following, although I do know a Chelsea fan who is a socialist

Many years ago Chelsea had a notable C18/fash following. They also had/have a large W London w/c black support and a lot of Irish/2nd gen irish supporters from Kilburn. It was never as simple as some like to claim. I know a fair few Chelsea fans on the political left. Charlie Sergeant the fat C18 'top boy' was an Arsenal fan.
 
Many years ago Chelsea had a notable C18/fash following. They also had/have a large W London w/c black support and a lot of Irish/2nd gen irish supporters from Kilburn. It was never as simple as some like to claim. I know a fair few Chelsea fans on the political left. Charlie Sergeant the fat C18 'top boy' was an Arsenal fan.

I know a spurs fan who's a racist prick, from some of the things he's said wouldn't surprise me if antisemitic as well, I wasn't suggesting all Chelsea fans are racist - good to see you back BTW
 
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