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Anelka's quenelle

LiamO said:
Sorry, I thought it was done in the French Cup Final. Dunno where I picked that up from, but I think it was a link posted here.
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it was a last 16 match against Sochaux, attendence 4500. by a second string right back who's played less than ten games.

(sorry, weird double post thing happened as i was on my phone)
 
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Casually Red said:
except its the critic saying it in this case, not the broad mass of people hes giving out about, who he says in the next breath dont understand what it means. Which looks to me like hes ascribing a meaning for it for them .

Which makes me more than a bit of wary of the pundit in question who apparently specialises in the relationship between the far left and the zionist entity . This makes me a bit wary of that guys analysis. Because what he seems to be having a go at are the elements on the left who are anti zionist and anti washington, and ascribing anti semitism to that . Thats my take on it anyway .

http://www.iris-france.org/cv.php?fichier=cv/cv2&nom=camus


That Id hasten to add shouldnt be miscontrued as any form of support for the gesture, anelka or the comedian. Because I simply dont support any of it . I just get a sniff of this particular academic chucking a bucket of anti semitic slurry over a very broad range of people on the french left whos views on zionism and Washington he seems to have the hump over.
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It certainly should not be misconstrued as that. It should be construed as that. The depths you plumb
 
revol68 said:
Has it eve occured to you that these issues framed in such a way are bugbears for euro fash, that euro nationalism isn't just moronic bootboys like the NF but has a particular analysis that essentially replaces class with national units... You'd fit right in, like a good little 3rd positionist.
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This is the only way that the euro-far right come to peoples attention over here. Beyond CR's anti-imperialst squatting. It's just not known how ideologically sophisticated people like Serge Ayoub are here - it's not part of the far-right public tradition. Which leaves useful idiots like dexter open to being used.
 
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I would certainly say it has increased, and I find it really frightening. I don't think thinking it has is part of some Zionist attempt to mislead people, I'm definitely not a zionist, I suspect its a combination of scapegoating for the financial crisis (the same reason there are increasingly unsympathetic attitudes to 'welfare' etc) and the fact that this has become part of an 'alternative' counter cultural thing that's a bit controversial in a way that bollocks about scroungers isn't, like a lot of people who believe in this seem to have views that are more associated with 'the left' the shit left but anyway. and it seems to be anti establishment in a way that going on about benefits isnt
 
Gesture of solidarity with racist roofer. What did the racist roofer actually mean when he engaged in a 30 year series of racist and ant-semitic actions? How can we be sure it's not interest groups behind the scenes stirring shit?

2009_05_31dieudo-2970552.jpg


I really cannot believe the dickery behind some of the posts (liam/dexter/CR) on this thread. If you can't spot it now, out in the open and on the streets, then retire.
 
frogwoman said:
I would certainly say it has increased, and I find it really frightening. I don't think thinking it has is part of some Zionist attempt to mislead people, I'm definitely not a zionist, I suspect its a combination of scapegoating for the financial crisis (the same reason there are increasingly unsympathetic attitudes to 'welfare' etc) and the fact that this has become part of an 'alternative' counter cultural thing that's a bit controversial in a way that bollocks about scroungers isn't, like a lot of people who believe in this seem to have views that are more associated with 'the left' the shit left but anyway. and it seems to be anti establishment in a way that going on about benefits isnt
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There was a thread here i think about 5 years ago on this question. I said that it didn't exist. I was wrong. Or at least it exists again. (Will try and find it in a sec)
 
frogwoman said:
Political 'anti Zionism' lol, is it wrong that I increasingly view someone describing themselves as that (as opposed to marxist, anarchist etc all of whom have anti Zionist views) with a slight degree of suspicion
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I have viewed these people with suspicion for decades. Too often Anti-Zionist = Jew hater.
 
Sasaferrato said:
I know Dexter IRL. He works in the same place as me. He is not an anti-Semite.
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I haven't claimed that he's an anti-Semite. I've stated that he's yet again shat on his own shoes.
How has he done that? By (as usual) wading in and making a pretty stupid statement that claimed that someone on the thread had called Anelka/compared Anelka to a Nazi. He then went to great and abusive lengths to not take ownership of what he'd said.
 
Sasaferrato said:
I have viewed these people with suspicion for decades. Too often Anti-Zionist = Jew hater.
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Its a shame because there are people in the PSC etc and doing anti occupation stuff in Israel which is really important. I was in the PSC for a couple of years, there are anti semites involved but they aren't all scum, they aren't all racist wankers, many are dedicated and sincere people with good politics. What I mean is when someone makes anti Zionism the entire focus of their politics and don't give a shit about anything else, or not enough to do anything about it. I oppose Zionism, I don't think I'm a Jew hater in fact I suspect I'm more involved in the Jewish community here than many people here and ironically over the last few years since 'cast lead' etc there is much less of a taboo about criticising Israel than what there used to be. Most Jewish people don't agree with what happens in Israel and unfortunately who benefits from this increase in racism etc is actually the Israeli state.
 
Sasaferrato said:
I have viewed these people with suspicion for decades. Too often Anti-Zionist = Jew hater.
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Even when the anti-Zionists are Jews?
I know you cling tightly to your Jewish heritage, but you don't live it. Some of us do, and our opposition to nationalist Zionism is based on our actual experiences of the effect of that Zionism, not on our 2nd-hand perceptions.
 
ViolentPanda said:
Even when the anti-Zionists are Jews?
I know you cling tightly to your Jewish heritage, but you don't live it. Some of us do, and our opposition to nationalist Zionism is based on our actual experiences of the effect of that Zionism, not on our 2nd-hand perceptions.
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He's not saying that all anti-zionists are anti-semites; he's saying that "too often, they are". Which is unarguable.
 
I must say this whole business astonished me. Like most people, I had never heard of 'La Quenelle'.

On reading about it's originator, it rapidly becomes apparent that it is an anti-Semitic gesture. One cannot know with absolute certainty that this was the intent of the originator, but it becomes apparent that it is an anti-Semitic gesture. The evidence supplied by You Tube is overwhelming.

Jews have have no more amnesty from criticism than anyone else, but when criticism morphs into hate crime, then that is another matter.

I don't have a problem with Holocaust deniers. They are patently wrong, and the historical facts do not support their case. They are 'flat earthers' more deserving of derision than punishment. I am a firm believer that everyone is entitled to their view, as long as that view is confined to thought. When those thoughts become deeds, a line is crossed and the legislature becomes involved.

Anelka is guilty, but of what exactly? Even a full blown Nazi salute is not necessarily an offence in Britain, and proving that Anelka is guilty of an offence under UK law is impossible.

This is something that both government and the FA need to ponder over, and decide what action needs to be taken to prevent a recurrence.
 
ViolentPanda said:
Even when the anti-Zionists are Jews?
I know you cling tightly to your Jewish heritage, but you don't live it. Some of us do, and our opposition to nationalist Zionism is based on our actual experiences of the effect of that Zionism, not on our 2nd-hand perceptions.
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Fair point.
 
butchersapron said:
DexterTCN - you've been posting very recently. Do you want to re-visit your comments? Or are you going to bottle it?
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My comments stand. I require more than a tabloid headline and some up-their-own-arses urbanites to convince me that Anelka is 'guilty' of anything.

I tend not to get involved once all the usual suspects troop in, it's pointless.

I'm not willing to participate in the customary shit-throwing fest that these threads rapidly become, I have no compulsion to argue with people I don't like.

I would add that what I said was that the tabloid link in the OP mentioned nazis, if VP wants to claim I accused an urbanite of being a nazi he should report it. Post #18
 
ViolentPanda said:
I haven't claimed that he's an anti-Semite. I've stated that he's yet again shat on his own shoes.
How has he done that? By (as usual) wading in and making a pretty stupid statement that claimed that someone on the thread had called Anelka/compared Anelka to a Nazi. He then went to great and abusive lengths to not take ownership of what he'd said.
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Absolutely, his point was clumsily made, and open to many levels of misinterpretation.
 
happie chappie said:
From the people who gave us the "I'd rather be a Paki than a Yid" ditty.
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You mean the variant of the late '60s/early '70s "I'd rather be a Paki than a scouse" that Man U supporters invented? The variant that refers solely to "the Yids", ie.e. Tottenham Hotspur supporters?

Get a fucking grip.
 
DexterTCN said:
My comments stand. I require more than a tabloid headline and some up-their-own-arses urbanites to convince me that Anelka is 'guilty' of anything.

I tend not to get involved once all the usual suspects troop in, it's pointless.

I'm not willing to participate in the customary shit-throwing fest that these threads rapidly become, I have no compulsion to argue with people I don't like.

I would add that what I said was that the tabloid link in the OP mentioned nazis, if VP wants to claim I accused an urbanite of being a nazi he should report it. Post #18
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dexter said:
Secondly, the article does make that connection. As do a few others, which I took the time to read last night. So I didn't just read it, I thought about it as well. My conclusion? Inconclusive.

Thirdly...for me, I need more than tabloid outrage as convincing evidence of ....anything.
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Not bothered reading anymore? Not came to any conclusions? Yep, useful idiot it is.
 
caleb said:
Was looking at some cunt who is an Nus delegate for my SU on twitter and he defended Anelka on the grounds it was a political, anti-Zionist act.
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If Anelka wanted to make an anti-Zionist statement, he could have pissed on a picture of Fat Benny Netanyahu, or wore a T-shirt with Fat Benny's visage on it, underscored with the words "Zionist fuckwit". They'd have been much more apt, and more correctly anti-Zionist.
 
caleb said:
It seems to me the logic of the perfectly fair trope that anti-Zionism is not inherently antisemitic gets turned into '... Anti-Zionism is never antisemitic'. This in turn leads people who think like that to construct a conspiracy around the use of the term... As a Jewish plot to smear their politics.
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Those who claim that anti-Zionism is never anti-Semitic are idiots. Of course anti-Zionism CAN be used as a tool for promoting anti-Semitism, and of course anti-Zionism IS used as a tool for promoting anti-Semitism. The issue requires people to look beyond the statements made w/r/t to anti-Zionism, to the motive and context in which the statements are made.
 
ViolentPanda said:
Those who claim that anti-Zionism is never anti-Semitic are idiots. Of course anti-Zionism CAN be used as a tool for promoting anti-Semitism, and of course anti-Zionism IS used as a tool for promoting anti-Semitism. The issue requires people to look beyond the statements made w/r/t to anti-Zionism, to the motive and context in which the statements are made.
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Lots of them about though
 
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