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Anelka's quenelle

frogwoman said:
Well Dieudonne is famous for antisemitism, he does songs about the holocaust, he campaigns on antisemitic political themes, he always goes on about Jews and has sketches where he takes the piss out of people in the holocaust and I'm sorry there's no way you could be his mate and not know this, I mean what do you think they talk about when they meet up??
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Well, exactly. I really, really don't get why DexterTCN finds it impossible to understand the very simple and clear-to-understand point you make.
 
frogwoman said:
Yeah I know. Although I do wonder whether he has any other comedy routines or if it's just wall to wall banging on about the Jews all the time.
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Yeah, exactly again - shades of the late, unlamented trampie and his "Jews control Parliament" wanking that both me and steph pulled him up on.
 
Come on that's like 4 posts...I can't sit and reply to them all.

Froggy...am I an anti-semite? I've been here 9 years or so. You want to throw shit about anti-semites...you better stick up for those who are not when they're accused. So you go on about Anelka and Diodenne. You've been here all the time I have and you let that slide?

You call Anelka one, you stay silent when I'm called one. Same difference to me. See?

Is Anelka? I don't know, I never presumed to know. I don't recall ever reading anything he has ever said that was not to do with football.

Of course...if the football association of england finds him guilty...that's all the proof anyone needs.
 
DexterTCN said:
Come on that's like 4 posts...I can't sit and reply to them all.

Froggy...am I an anti-semite? I've been here 9 years or so. You want to throw shit about anti-semites...you better stick up for those who are not when they're accused. So you go on about Anelka and Diodenne. You've been here all the time I have and you let that slide?

You call Anelka one, you stay silent when I'm called one. Same difference to me. See?

Is Anelka? I don't know, I never presumed to know. I don't recall ever reading anything he has ever said that was not to do with football.

Of course...if the football association of england finds him guilty...that's all the proof anyone needs.
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I haven't called anelka one.
 
DexterTCN said:
Come on that's like 4 posts...I can't sit and reply to them all.

Froggy...am I an anti-semite? I've been here 9 years or so. You want to throw shit about anti-semites...you better stick up for those who are not when they're accused. So you go on about Anelka and Diodenne. You've been here all the time I have and you let that slide?

You call Anelka one, you stay silent when I'm called one. Same difference to me. See?

Is Anelka? I don't know, I never presumed to know. I don't recall ever reading anything he has ever said that was not to do with football.

Of course...if the football association of england finds him guilty...that's all the proof anyone needs.
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I haven't called you one, I haven't called anelka one either ffs. You saying the quenelle isn't antisemitic is basically just because you like anelka and don't want to think he's like that.
 
Has DexterTCN put me on ignore? Because if he has (or is deliberately ignoring my replies to him) then that's frankly piss-poor, and makes me think that he really has no arguments to offer in this case at all, other than "Anelka is innocent, m'kay?"
 
I have actually gone out my way to say I dunno if anelka is one or not. Fair enough you like anelka and don't want to think he could be mates with scum, let alone be one himself, but you don't have to take criticism of anelka and chums as a personal attack ffs. Its like bolshiebhoy on the SWP thread going on about the SWP and how comrade delta is all right, it's the mentality of thinking that because you like a person (who you dont even know!) it means they aren't a cunt, guess what things dont work like that in the real world, I don't think you're an antisemite, you're being pretty daft here though.
 
MellySingsDoom said:
Has DexterTCN put me on ignore? Because if he has (or is deliberately ignoring my replies to him) then that's frankly piss-poor, and makes me think that he really has no arguments to offer in this case at all, other than "Anelka is innocent, m'kay?"
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I had multiple replies. The lady took priority. m'kay?
 
I think I'm going to re-instate my point of DexterTCN being imbecilic here. He's deliberately ignoring me, and keeps banging on about froggy accusing him of being anti-Semitic, when she has repeatedly said she has done no such thing.
 
MellySingsDoom said:
This literally came up when I sent my last post. OK, I await your reply to me with great interest.
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I should leave you to discuss me in the first and third person.
MellySingsDoom said:
I think I'm going to re-instate my point of DexterTCN being imbecilic here. He's deliberately ignoring me, and keeps banging on about froggy accusing him of being anti-Semitic, when she has repeatedly said she has done no such thing.
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You're asking for a reply on a contentious subject where most people have made up their minds and solidified their stance. My view won't fit here. I've said it before. Hate is hate, if you hate then you're no better. You're worse.

You said earlier that you didn't know if I was an anti-semite or not, but you keep bringing it up. You're not saying I am...but you keep mentioning it.

Are you any better than those saying it? Who do you defend? Who do you attack? What results do you get from those actions?

Like I said...my views don't fit in threads like this...but hey...free speech.
 
DexterTCN said:
I should leave you to discuss me in the first and third person.


You're asking for a reply on a contentious subject where most people have made up their minds and solidified their stance. My view won't fit here. I've said it before. Hate is hate, if you hate then you're no better. You're worse.

You said earlier that you didn't know if I was an anti-semite or not, but you keep bringing it up. You're not saying I am...but you keep mentioning it.

Are you any better than those saying it? Who do you defend? Who do you attack? What results do you get from those actions?

Like I said...my views don't fit in threads like this...but hey...free speech.
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Dexter, in my first reply to you, I said that I would take your assertion that you are NOT an anti-semite as read, and did NOT bring up you being an anti-Semite at all. Please don't put words into my mouth - it's not becoming of you, frankly.

Who said I hated you? (Is this what you're inferring here?). As for Dioudonne, I despise him for his outright anti-Semitism, that is true enough. If you think that's "hate", instead of a matter of fact based on the evidence surrounding Dioudonne, then....well, I don't know what to make of that, really. Put it this way - I'm not some complacent fucking middle class hippy who insists that we all love each other, and that "love" can conquer hate. That sort of attitude is a complete cop-out, frankly.

Who said also I'm "better" than anyone else? I've simply stated a case, based strictly on the facts and research from a wide variety of sources, that the quenelle is indeed an anti-Semitic gesture. The evidence is clear and overwhelming, and has been presented time and again on this thread. Did you take time out to go from page 1 and check out the details on this evidence? If you haven't, I suggest you should do - you'll find the details therein instructive, to say the least.

And who's denying your right to free speech? I'm certainly not, but I will challenge people's opinions on here (note: not just you) where I find them ill-informed or just plain ridiculous.

Your seeming refusal to engage with my points, and present your own counter-arguments, is frankly disappointing. You could have put your case for the other side in some detail, and I would have listened to you and responded in due course.

I think that's covered all of the points raised by you. I look forward to any further replies from you in due course.
 
DexterTCN said:
I should leave you to discuss me in the first and third person.


You're asking for a reply on a contentious subject where most people have made up their minds and solidified their stance. My view won't fit here. I've said it before. Hate is hate, if you hate then you're no better. You're worse.

You said earlier that you didn't know if I was an anti-semite or not, but you keep bringing it up. You're not saying I am...but you keep mentioning it.

Are you any better than those saying it? Who do you defend? Who do you attack? What results do you get from those actions?

Like I said...my views don't fit in threads like this...but hey...free speech.
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What is this evasive waffle?
 
barney_pig said:
I think the swp & delta case isn't the best example to use re diodenne and anelka, perhaps instead the swp and Gilda atzmon; an open anti Semite, defended and promoted by a group of people who would be horrified to be considered anti Semitic, in order to placate the music preferences of their national secretary, err comrade Delta.
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perhaps not, but i was comparing the attitude of people who don't think anelka could do any wrong because they like him and he's famous to people who don't think comrade delta could do any wrong because they like him and he's done "so many good things for the party"
 
frogwoman said:
perhaps not, but i was comparing the attitude of people who don't think anelka could do any wrong because they like him and he's famous to people who don't think comrade delta could do any wrong because they like him and he's done "so many good things for the party"
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Like associate them with a notorious anti Semite and friend of fascists. It's odd he hasn't been snapped up by a PR company
 
barney_pig said:
Like associate them with a notorious anti Semite and friend of fascists. It's odd he hasn't been snapped up by a PR company
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My mum took me to a gilad atzmon concert when i was 15 not realising or knowing that he was an anti-semite. I got a book by him at the concert "guide for the perplexed" - i found out shortly afterwards he was an anti-semite and stuck the book on the shelf and never read it. i found it in a load of stuff last month and chucked it in the bin
 
DexterTCN

I hope you're not saying that I've accused you of being an anti-Semite?

I've been very deliberate with what I've said, and how I've said it.

I haven't even said that Anelka is an anti-Semite.

I've looked at the quenelle and it's origins and meaning.

It is an anti-Semitic gesture, invented by a famous anti-semite who hangs around with the far-right/fascists.

That much is simple, and frankly not contentious. It's not secret. It's not hidden. It's all out in the open.
 
brogdale said:
There has been discussion in this thread regarding the extent to which the quenelle can be interpreted as an 'anti-authoritarian' or anti-semitic, and I think it fair to say that most posters have decided upon the latter.

In saying this:-

....in the UK there is a similar physical expression of derision.
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...youre defending Anelka from any accusation of anti-semitism or offence.
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DexterTCN When you responded to this post, up-thread, instead of answering the substantive point I had made about your posting, you merely edited what I had written, to change the meaning, and offered up some pathetic persecution complex guff about what other posters are alleged to have called you.

I was attempting to discover whether or not you'd come onto the thread to consciously defend Anelka's position that he did not realise what had had 'said' with the gesture. IMO your posting was either trolling or you did seek to argue in favour of Anelka...for whatever reason.

How about answering this properly, eh?
 
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DexterTCN said:
Oh they've specifically called me an anti-semite...you must not be reading it (because it doesn't suit you).
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Links to posts, please.

You're calling me a cunt. Not anyone else (so far).
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If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, best to call it a duck, no?

You're calling me an apologist for Anelka...saying he's an anti-semite so I support him.
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I haven't said that you "support" him. Perhaps you need to turn down your "hyperbole" setting?
I've said that you're an apologist for him. You've been disingenuous in the way you've repeatedly ignored most referent data about the origins and use of the quenelle, and attempted to put the onus on others to absolutely prove that what Anelka was doing was anti-Semitic. Such actions may not appear to be apologism to you, it does to me and to others on this thread.

I'm saying you've not proved anything against him. All you've done is go on about other people and posted pictures of white people outside memorials.
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If I straighten my right arm, bend it at the elbow, make a fist of my right hand and raise my forearm so that my fist is over my chest, then straighten the arm into an open-palmed salute, you can say "that's a salute used by troops in the Roman empire" (which it is), and use that fact to attempt to nullify claims that such a salute is fascist, as used by the Italian fascists (which it still is). If you use a gesture that's widely-understood (as the quenelle is widely-understood) to have a primary meaning that is anti-Semitic (have you looked at theFfrench print media on this, by the way? Every political stripe of newspaper appears to agree that the quenelle is anti-Semitic and anti-establishment, so any claim to ignorance about the anti-Semitic element either paints the quenellist as ignorant or dishonest), then you'll be held to account for it.
Do you believe that Anelka is so thick that he didn't know that the quenelle is anti-Semitic? because unless you do, then your posts are apologia for the deliberate actions of an anti-Semite.

You've presented no proof, that I have seen, that Anelka is an anti-semite.
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If it walks lke a duck and quacks like a duck, it is invariably a canard.

And bear in mind....you're an aggressive, accusatory and offensive person. But you can do that with me, it's allowed...I'm not an 'ism'. That makes it ok.
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Yes, I am an "aggressive, accusatory and offensive person". I absolutely loathe apologia. It's intellectually dishonest cheeseparing, the like of which lawyers do to get guilty clients off. It "gets my goat", and that's reflected in my language, you sententious arsewipe.
 
frogwoman said:
Well Dieudonne is famous for antisemitism, he does songs about the holocaust, he campaigns on antisemitic political themes, he always goes on about Jews and has sketches where he takes the piss out of people in the holocaust and I'm sorry there's no way you could be his mate and not know this, I mean what do you think they talk about when they meet up??
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Tunisian date cake, obviously. Nothing about the perfidy of the Franco-Yids, or how Dreyfus was really guilty. Nothing about Dieudonne's slow metamorphosis into a populist right-winger and how he's carried his banlieue audience with him, possibly to the advantage of the French hard right.
None of that political stuff, nah!
 
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