Anelka's quenelle

[MellySingsDoom]

Heres a good thread on black metal and political dodgyness just in case you haven't read it..
http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/black-metal-that-is-not-politically-dodge.316565/

my question would be - is there any music scene that one would need to walk away from due to political dodgness that circulates within it? Like hardcore has had its moments with the likes of warzone, and agnostic front either holding (quasi?-)fascist views or flirting with the imagary of fascism, not to mention the uber conservative direction that some strands of straightedge did in the 90s; punk white power scene; hip-hop homophobia and misogyny etc...

stretchheads, good band that....

Thanks for the heads up on the black metal Urban thread - will read up on that later on.

My own take on politically dodgy music? Well, with hardcore punk, that scene has had its moments of right-wing blundering idiocy, for sure, but you have other bands - such as Converge, for example - whose hearts are in the right place, politically speaking, and I think that all in all, the h/c scene has an overall pretty sensible approach w/regard to tackling fascist etc stuff. (Mind you, I went right off Iceage after they said how "great" fascist black metallers Absurd are). Neo-folk is so ingrained w/fascism etc it's not true, so is also worthless. Much power electronics manages to rampage in the fascist etc etc area with hobnail boots on....the only example of any power electronics group person who has ever expressed regret/contrition for messing about w/fascist imagery is Gary Mundy, who's stated in interviews that he made a mistake in that area. Hip-hop has its own problem areas, I guess, and I personally won't listen to dancehall containing homophobic lyrics. Heavy metal has had its fair share of intolerant gems too over the years (Slayer, anyone?), but I find much heavy metal to be laughable Dungeons and Dragons stuff, these days. There's probably more to discuss here - I'll come back to it later if I can add any more that's valid to the debate at hand.

As for Stretchheads - I saw them live once, and thought them hilarious. Their records were quite something too, back in the day. In my case though, falling out with their vocalist has soured my opinion on them somewhat - I haven't listened to them since, to be honest...

 

[LiamO]

Anelka speaks...

The striker posted a video featuring Roger Cukierman, head of Jewish organisation CRIF (Representative Council of French Jewish Institutions), on Twitter on Tuesday and believes the football governing body should have sought his views.

The ex-France international continued: "The English FA have employed an expert to rule on the significance of my quenelle. He has concluded that my gesture had an anti-Semitic connotation, which had led to me being charged by the FA.

"It would have been legitimate if this expert had been French, living in France and with an exact understanding of my gesture.

"What better expert than Mr Cukierman, head of Jewish organisation CRIF, who explains very clearly that my quenelle could not be considered anti-Semitic.

"He also explains precisely when this gesture could have such a connotation."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/25845493

anyone know enough french to translate the video rather than just this quote?

 

[butchersapron]

Do you?

 

[DexterTCN]

What, besides the fact that he's a cunt?

Yes..I'm a cunt for pointing out the in the UK there is a similar physical expression of derision.

Up yours. Right up yours. All the way....up.

 

[butchersapron]

Yes..I'm a cunt for pointing out the in the UK there is a similar physical expression of derision.

Up yours. Right up yours. All the way....up.

This whole thread - the paths within and without - and that's it?

 

[Favelado]

Yes..I'm a cunt for pointing out the in the UK there is a similar physical expression of derision.

Up yours. Right up yours. All the way....up.

You didn't even get your instructions right. You'd have to twist your arm round. Useless!

 

[DotCommunist]

oh so it wasn't a crap joke

 

[butchersapron]

I just had a thought. Surely the quenelle is only the starting point of the british 'up yours'.

Do the quenelle and then raise your lower hand in a fist.

Just to remind people. That dexter a) doesn't know history and b) what 'up yours' actually is c) is prepared to make up made shit to defend anti-semitism.

 

[DexterTCN]

Just to remind people. That dexter a) doesn't know history and b) what 'up yours' actually is c) is prepared to make up made shit to defend anti-semitism.

 

[butchersapron]

Or what country that poster is famously from or what the gesture depicted is. Help yourself.

 

[frogwoman]

Just to remind people. That dexter a) doesn't know history and b) what 'up yours' actually is c) is prepared to make up made shit to defend anti-semitism.

Yes..I'm a cunt for pointing out the in the UK there is a similar physical expression of derision.

Up yours. Right up yours. All the way....up.

Dexter no there isn't! Giving someone the finger or whatever is just an insult, its got nothing to do with the Jews and taking the piss out of things like the holocaust!!

 

[DexterTCN]

Dexter no there isn't! Giving someone the finger or whatever is just an insult, its got nothing to do with the Jews and taking the piss out of things like the holocaust!!

Yes there is.

 

[chilango]

Aside from the fact that we know the quenelle is antisemitic, and that this was (and is) it's intended message. Merely a a glance at the rigid arm , flattened palm and outstretched fingers will tell that it's not an "up yours" gesture based upon the bras d'honneur but that it's origins lie in a far more obvious place.

 

[butchersapron]

Yes Dexter , the famous french quenelle derives from anti-french longbowmen at agincourt.

 

[brogdale]

Yes Dexter , the famous french quenelle derives from anti-french longbowmen at agincourt.

 

[MellySingsDoom]

I thought that Dexter was mistaken re the quenelle last night. Now he's coming across as a complete imbecile. I haven't seen this much Facepalm City since the late trampie entertained us all with his "all English people are Tories" shtick.

 

[DexterTCN]

Aside from the fact that we know the quenelle is antisemitic, and that this was (and is) it's intended message.....

You're talking about Anelka, right?

 

[frogwoman]

Yes there is.

Oh ffs, can't be fucked with you if you're gonna be like that. Loads of people have explained why it's antisemitic, the main reason being that its invented by a guy famous for antisemitism and using it in his shows about Jews control the world, are we gonna have to do the entire thread again?

 

[cesare]

Didn't Mark Von Bommel have to apologise for his bras d'honneur a few years back? And the bras d'honneur's got no anti-Semitic connotations; think you're barking up the wrong tree here Dexter.

 

[chilango]

You're talking about Anelka, right?

I'm talking about the gesture Anelka made.

 

[DexterTCN]

I'm talking about the gesture Anelka made.

So you're saying Anelka is an anti-semite and that was his intention.

 

[LiamO]

Do you?

Non.

Je ne reget rien

 

[butchersapron]

So you're saying Anelka is an anti-semite and that was his intention.

I like when people say things. That means they believe the thing that they said. The train is red.

 

[MellySingsDoom]

So you're saying Anelka is an anti-semite and that was his intention.

He made the gesture fully knowing about its connotations, and what Dioudonne "invented" it for.

Please, for the love of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, go back and read this thread again. You're making yourself look a complete arse on here right now.

 

[cesare]

V

 

[frogwoman]

Didn't Mark Von Bommel have to apologise for his bras d'honneur a few years back? And the bras d'honneur's got no anti-Semitic connotations; think you're barking up the wrong tree here Dexter.

Yeah since when did other rude gestures have owt to do with the Jews? Maybe they all secretly have a secret antisemitic meaning in order to communicate secret resistance signals against the illuminati and there's a conspiracy to cover it up? Dunno I'd rather just use them in their mainstream sheeple meaning myself!

 

[co-op]

Yes Dexter , the famous french quenelle derives from anti-french longbowmen at agincourt.

Off topic but the two fingers are way older than Agincourt, it's the horn sign, means "you are a cuckold". Male insult to other men, based on the implication they have screwed the other's wife.

 

[butchersapron]

Off topic but the two fingers are way older than Agincourt, it's the horn sign, means "you are a cuckold". Male insult to other men, based on the implication they have screwed the other's wife.

Either way, in his defence of open anti-semitism he's confused the arm/fist thing for being a noted british thing and with another gesture entirely.

 

[co-op]

Either way, in his defence of open anti-semitism he's confused the arm/fist thing for being a noted british thing and with another gesture entirely.

Oh yes he's well confused and the quenelle is obviously anti-semitic. It's just the Agincourt two-fingers thing, it's wrong.

 

[elbows]

Gotta say that once Anelka made the gesture but before the thread started, I did do research into the quenelle which suggested it was a combination of nazi salute and bras d'honneur.

So I reckon it should be possible to acknowledge some of the possible origins of the detail of the physical gesture without trying to imply anything about it somehow not being anti-semitic. It doesn't matter if its a nazi salute merged with the bras d'honneur or a nazi salute merged with an ostrich dance, its still got some nazi salute in it and is associated with anti-semitic views.