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Anelka's quenelle

Casually Red said:
Ive zero interest in trolling on this subject, it doesnt look even remotely like a nazi salute and dolphins have got sweet fuck all to do with either nazis or jews . And there hasnt been debate that suggests any such thing, theres been the french governments line against their most prominent and popular critic that they want silenced. That your happy to swallow uncritically .
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To answer your points in order. You are a troll. That it contains some of the features of a Nazi salute is completely undeniable and does look "remotely" like one by any sensible definition. There has indeed been debate that suggests it looks like one. Finally, your point about me uncritically swallowing a French government line is a straw man. You've just made that up and I've said nothing that can lead to that conclusion. I'm just saying that the gesture is at the very least ambiguous enough to be interpreted as anti-semitic or is overtly anti-semitic.
 
Casually Red said:
if youve a point make one
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From-Butchersapron-post #1356- "The reality is that Dieudonné has been on the far right and engaging in anti-semitism since the early 2000s and has been publicly well known for being and doing so in France since then.

Secondly, the idea that this was just part of a sketch about dolphins and so had no anti-semitic content in itself when first used: it's reported that it was part of a sketch about things secretly running the world and that in the clowns worldview it's Jews who secretly run the world how much more obvious do you think the metaphor has to be?"
 
Casually Red said:
please explain this to me...why in the name of fuck would I even remotely want to engage in plausible deniability to cover for a fascist salute, in your esteemed opinion. What on earth would be my motivation in that regard .

thisll be interesting no doubt
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This is what annoys me too.

The immediate, instinctive recourse to accusations of sympathy with fascism and/or anti-semitism.

Some people have absolutely no compunction about levelling such accusations in the most frivilous and crude manner imaginable.

Obviously this reveals only their own failure to grasp the nature or dimensions of fascism or anti-semitism, as well as their lack of any real interest in opposing them.
 
Favelado said:
So the outstretched arm and stiffened hand, both features of the Nazi salute, are mere coincidences? Of course it's been modified, that's why it's a pseudo Nazi salute and not an actual one. It has to be changed so that people can do it with plausible deniability.
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bullshit, it began in a sketch about dolphins, who have no arms . Its also necessary to stiffen ones arm somewhat if your sticking it up someones backside

obama-en-quenelle-448x293.jpg


i suppose the eagles in the background diminish somewhat the plausible deniability of these people doing their unmistakable nazi salute
 
Casually Red said:
please explain this to me...why in the name of fuck would I even remotely want to engage in plausible deniability to cover for a fascist salute, in your esteemed opinion. What on earth would be my motivation in that regard .

thisll be interesting no doubt
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My answer is no more extravagant than the word "trolling". I think you're insincere in your contributions and that you're here to wind people up. That's it really.
 
Favelado said:
My answer is no more extravagant than the word "trolling". I think you're insincere in your contributions and that you're here to wind people up. That's it really.
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well let me sincerely make this contribution, just because I dont agree with you does not make me a troll. Sometimes people are right and sometimes theyre wrong . Thats how it is, on this occasion I think your wrong, on plenty of others ive agreed with you and liked your posts .Im actually letting myself get wound up even by engaging on this, not the other way round . However despite that im going to try and stay polite regsrdless of provocations . The evidence just doesnt support your take on this .
 
Casually Red said:
well let me sincerely make this contribution, just because I dont agree with you does not make me a troll. Sometimes people are right and sometimes theyre wrong . Thats how it is, on this occasion I think your wrong, on plenty of others ive agreed with you and liked your posts .Im actually letting myself get wound up even by engaging on this, not the other way round . However despite that im going to try and stay polite regsrdless of provocations . The evidence just doesnt support your take on this .
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For you to be right though, we need to move into a world where well-meaning ingenues hang around death-camps, and, with only the very purest of motives, get photographed making hand signals that contain some elements of a Nazi salute but are actually saying something completely different. At no point do they think that the gesture might be misconstrued and nor does it occur to them that it's inappropriate behaviour.

Surely it is reasonable of me to find this a stretch?
 
Favelado said:
For you to be right though, we need to move into a world where well-meaning ingenues hang around death-camps, and, with only the very purest of motives, get photographed making hand signals that contain some elements of a Nazi salute but are actually saying something completely different. At no point do they think that the gesture might be misconstrued and nor does it occur to them that it's inappropriate behaviour.

Surely it is reasonable of me to find this a stretch?
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thats a straw man, as you are well aware the vast majority of instances of it being used are nowhere either symbols or people with any jewish connotations whatsoever. For example, heres it being used to mock, stealth bumming style, the french justice minister

Valls_Quenelle.jpg



and here to mock DSK at the scene of his arrest

300px-Quenelle_gesture.JPG


its pretty obvious theres zero anti semitic or nazi connotations in either context, but plenty of anti establishment sentiment and mockery .

So it cant be defined simply as a nazi salute or anti semitic gesture when the people using it simply dont have that intent or purpose, and for the umpteenth time it doesnt remotely look like one . And Im not remotely surprised the most despised French government since Petain , just days before a tabloid exposes Hollande as an adulterous philanderer having an affair with a prominent french actress pounce on Anelka and the quenelle as a handy distraction . While at the same time demonising a symbol of contempt for themselves.
 
[quote="Favelado, post: 12843396, member:
To answer your points in order. You are a troll.
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im tempted to say go fuck yourself you arrogant prick, but as ive promised to remain polite i wont . Disagreeing with you does not comprise trolling, regardless of how annoying you find it. This simply isnt funny, theres no jollies to be had here .

That it contains some of the features of a Nazi salute is completely undeniable and does look "remotely" like one by any sensible definition.
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people have arms, and nazis use arms to salute , thats about the only undeniable feature it has in common . It doesnt look anything like a nazi salute .
There has indeed been debate that suggests it looks like one.
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and part of that debate has an awful lot of people saying it doesnt look anything like a nazi salute. Which is presumably why so many people have apparently been doing a nazi salute they had no idea was a nazi salute . As most people are pretty aware what a nazi salute looks like . It being sort of instantly recognisable .
Finally, your point about me uncritically swallowing a French government line is a straw man. You've just made that up and I've said nothing that can lead to that conclusion. I'm just saying that the gesture is at the very least ambiguous enough to be interpreted as anti-semitic or is overtly anti-semitic
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were it not for the fact so many people have used it in patently non anti semitic contexts and against figures with no semitic background youd be right. Except youre wrong .
 
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phildwyer said:
This is what it really means, right?

That's why the guy has the measurements on his arm: it's like "I fuck you up the ass this much."

That's it, isn't it?

I get it now. Bloody French eh?
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it symbolises a suppository, how far Im going to shove it up. Thats why the guy with the measurements on his arm is grimacing at the scene of DSKs infamy. Theres no anti semitism at all in that context .

But theres no doubt its also used in an anti semitic context as well . Or that Dieudonne has come out with some awful anti semitic stuff.
 
Casually Red said:
thats a straw man, as you are well aware the vast majority of instances of it being used are nowhere either symbols or people with any jewish connotations whatsoever. For example, heres it being used to mock, stealth bumming style, the french justice minister

Valls_Quenelle.jpg



and here to mock DSK at the scene of his arrest

300px-Quenelle_gesture.JPG


its pretty obvious theres zero anti semitic or nazi connotations in either context, but plenty of anti establishment sentiment and mockery .

So it cant be defined simply as a nazi salute or anti semitic gesture when the people using it simply dont have that intent or purpose, and for the umpteenth time it doesnt remotely look like one . And Im not remotely surprised the most despised French government since Petain , just days before a tabloid exposes Hollande as an adulterous philanderer having an affair with a prominent french actress pounce on Anelka and the quenelle as a handy distraction . While at the same time demonising a symbol of contempt for themselves.
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I made specific reference to the occasions when it IS being done outside locations sensitive to Jewish people. My post is not a straw-man because it does not misrepresent your view. Everything contained in that post must be true for your claims to be correct. I am not claiming that the quenelle is always used as an anti-semitic gesture, that is your straw-man argument against me. I'm saying that it is likely to be very often an anti-semitic gesture, that it was created by an anti-semite and that it seems an extraordinary coincidence that it contains some of the features of a Nazi salute. You can't just say "it doesn't look like one." It's got a stiff arm and a stiff hand pointed at an angle in it. It's a fucking stone cold fact that it has plenty in common with a fascist salute. It's absurd to think that it never crossed the mind of an outspoken, anti-Jewish, politically-aware figure as he thought it up. "Oh, this is probably fine, no-ones going to read into this at all!" Bollocks.

Also, when you do it outside a death camp, it is impossible that you don't have any idea of what you're doing. Why are people stood around grinning in photos outside Auschwitz at all? Who thinks any kind of "funny" photo is a good idea? Anti-semites, that's who.

In previous posts you have stated that it is an only an anti-establishment gesture in these instances. I find this very, very difficult to believe and I would like you to confirm that you think people go to these types of places and have these kind of pictures taken with no anti-semitic connotation in their minds.

Is that really what you think? Because, this is what I'm really contending here. It seems a singularly foolish, or inflammatory claim.
 
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phildwyer said:
Got it.

See, that just wouldn't even occur to British people. The channel is wider than it looks.
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My take on it is its like DM boots in British culture. For the fash they were an indispensible part of fash expression and identity, an outwardly nazi symbol synonymous with everything they stood for . But for a lot of other people it meant something else entirely no matter how heavily they were identified with fascism as a symbol and attitude.

Im being accused of trolling here because I can see the difference in why people do it . My only beef is I cant stand the thought of ordinary people making an anti establishment gesture being smeared with the nazi brush. And I can see perfectly well why the deeply unpopular french political establishment would want to do that . And I can also see theyve pretty much succeeded .
 
This is not in direct response to Casually Red . Rather, new developments in the row and background information. The "pineapple holocaust" comes from a portmanteau of the two words in French, and is used in his routine.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25668275
Some of the fans outside the Zenith gave Dieudonne's trademark quenelle gesture, which is regarded by many as an inverted Nazi salute.
Some fans brandished pineapples. One of the comic's most notorious songs, Shoananas, roughly translates as Pineapple-Holocaust and mocks commemoration of the Nazi extermination of the Jews.
French media who have sent reporters to previous performances of The Wall say it contained a string of derogatory references to Jews.
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pineapple.jpg
 
Being generous lets say you thought the gesture was anti establishment.

The second you see it being used out side Anne franks house, their is absolutely no excuse to ever use it or turn a blind eye while other use it

I thought anti semitism was confined to a few hardcore bone heads, but the pure diversity of the people in the pictures doing it is shocking.

My neigbour is 85 and used the term colored when referring to our black neigbour,I told him that most black people find that term offensive he apologize profusely and i've never heard him say it again.. Is it really too much to ask that people realise how the use of the gesture has changed and not use it
Its like the people who wont stop using gay,paki or chinky because "hey thats not what i mean when i use it'
 
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copliker said:
DSK is jewish.
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hes also the epitomy of establishment neo liberalism and personal slime . The only reason an arm shouldnt be stuffed up his rapist ass is he probably paid prostitues 5 grand a go to do exactly that and then stuck it on his IMF expence account .
 
phildwyer said:
Not just from an anarchist perspective.

Alan Dershowitz has been pushing this line hard in recent years. The argument runs as follows:

"All peoples have a right to self-determination; but anti-Zionists deny this right to the Jews alone; therefore anti-Zionism is anti-semitism."

It's obviously a crap argument, and I doubt you need me to tell you why. But I will if you like.
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Dershowitz has had very little credibility "in recent years", what with the plagiarism and all.
 
phildwyer said:
No they do not coincide.

What the Americans need from the middle east is oil.

Who has the oil?

Does America make nice with the people who have the oil?

No, American does the opposite.

That's very strange. Why on earth would America do that?

It ain't rocket science dude.
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The support of the state of Israel isn't about oil, it's about the US having a strategic interest in Israel as a bulwark against Islamic interests, and as a physical beachhead into the wider Middle East and north Africa if that's ever necessary.
remember that those staging posts that the US do have in the M.E and N.A exist on sufferance, and often on the fact that those states are not democratically-run.

"The Israel Lobby" doesn't set foreign policy, but it does work to bring wider US geo-strategic objectives and the objectives of the state of Israel into harmony.
 
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