Anelka's quenelle

[Casually Red]

If you're in his position nothing you do is anti establishment. Why doesn't he give his money away if he wants to fight the system?

and how will that, even remotely, undermine either capitalism, the EU or the french political establishment .
it wont, not by one iota

 

[brogdale]

I honestly don't see how.

I also know that accusations of "promoting ideas of a Jewish conspiracy" can be used to quell legitimate dissent and rational opinion.

For example they are constantly used to descredit (or at least make unsayable) the manifest and important truth that American middle east policy is determined by the Zionist lobby.

Seen from an anarchist perspective, It's relatively straight-forward to see anti-semitic motives in anti-zionists if their rejection of (theological) states is limited to one example.

 

[Casually Red]

I honestly don't see how.

I also know that accusations of "promoting ideas of a Jewish conspiracy" can be used to quell legitimate dissent and rational opinion.

For example they are constantly used to descredit (or at least make unsayable) the manifest and important truth that American middle east policy is determined by the Zionist lobby.

but thats absolute bollocks

jewish mind rays simply dont exist, and never have done, and never will do

 

[frogwoman]

AIPAC etc have some influence but they don't 'determine' it ffs

 

[phildwyer]

an "anti-establishment" gesture that looks quite like a Nazi salute

And this is another thing.

How does it look like a Nazi salute?

It doesn't really, does it?

And even if you claim it's an "upside down Nazi salute," that would normally be interpreted as a sign of contempt, as when a flag is flown upside down.

People are just seeing whatever they want to see in this story.

 

[phildwyer]

but thats absolute bollocks

How would you know?

 

[phildwyer]

sos gerard depardieu and Brigitte Bardot, are you seriously going to argue they support the french political establishment

Is Russell Brand pro British establishment too

Who fucking cares?

 

[Casually Red]

How do you find yourself outside a former concentration camp making an "anti-establishment" gesture that looks quite like a Nazi salute without thinking "this might end up looking a bit anti-semitic, maybe I'll leave it"? You either are actually anti-semitic or you are a fucking idiot. In either case, I have no sympathy for the person in question.

how in the name of feck does that even remotely look like a nazi salute

it simply doesnt

 

[Casually Red]

How would you know?

because im in on the real jew conspiracy and they, the elders, told me

also the point your making doesnt stand up to any logical scrutiny.

And because the house of Saud arent jewish.

but you could well know otherwise i suppose

 

[phildwyer]

Seen from an anarchist perspective, It's relatively straight-forward to see anti-semitic motives in anti-zionists if their rejection of (theological) states is limited to one example.

Not just from an anarchist perspective.

Alan Dershowitz has been pushing this line hard in recent years. The argument runs as follows:

"All peoples have a right to self-determination; but anti-Zionists deny this right to the Jews alone; therefore anti-Zionism is anti-semitism."

It's obviously a crap argument, and I doubt you need me to tell you why. But I will if you like.

 

[phildwyer]

because im in on the real jew conspiracy and they told me

also the point your making doesnt stand up to any logical scrutiny.

And because the house of Saud arent jewish.

but you could well know otherwise i suppose

I do indeed know otherwise. So does anyone with more than a cursory knowledge of American politics.

 

[Casually Red]

I do indeed know otherwise. So does anyone with more than a cursory knowledge of American politics.

so the house of Saud are really crypto jews then

 

[Favelado]

how in the name of feck does that even remotely look like a nazi salute

it simply doesnt

Oh I don't know. The straightened arm in a different position to provide the same type of plausible denialibility that you're indulging in. I think it looks like one. You don't, or rather you do but you're trolling and pretending you don't. I think there's enough debate about it to suggest it does resemble one to many people.

 

[phildwyer]

so the house of Saud are really crypto jews then

The House of Saud are American puppets.

What's your point?

 

[Casually Red]

AIPAC etc have some influence but they don't 'determine' it ffs

they have influence primarily because their interests and US imperial interests coincide . The day those interests diverge is the day they are out on their arse

 

[frogwoman]

That and he's written racist songs and is mates with known antisemites even entering political activity with them

Oh I don't know. The straightened arm in a different position to provide the same type of plausible denialibility that you're indulging in. I think it looks like one. You don't, or rather you do but you're trolling and pretending you don't. I think there's enough debate about it to suggest it does resemble one to many people.

 

[phildwyer]

I think it looks like one.

I completely believe you.

But it obviously doesn't. The arm points in the wrong direction. The Nazis didn't do that thing with the fingers.

Therefore, it looks nothing like a Nazi salute. But here's the thing: that does not prevent people from thinking that it does.

Weird huh?

 

[frogwoman]

Surely american FP is determined by what oil companies, pharmaceutical companies, the security services, the people in the white house etc think is in their interests, which may not all be the same thing, not some 'Zionist lobby'

 

[brogdale]

I completely believe you.

But it obviously doesn't. The arm points in the wrong direction. The Nazis didn't do that thing with the fingers.

Therefore, it looks nothing like a Nazi salute. But here's the thing: that does not prevent people from thinking that it does.

Weird huh?

I thought the whole point of the thread was about what the gesture signifies, not what 'it looks like'.

 

[phildwyer]

they have influence primarily because their interests and US imperial interests coincide .

No they do not coincide.

What the Americans need from the middle east is oil.

Who has the oil?

Does America make nice with the people who have the oil?

No, American does the opposite.

That's very strange. Why on earth would America do that?

It ain't rocket science dude.

 

[Favelado]

I completely believe you.

But it obviously doesn't. The arm points in the wrong direction. The Nazis didn't do that thing with the fingers.

Therefore, it looks nothing like a Nazi salute. But here's the thing: that does not prevent people from thinking that it does.

Weird huh?

So the outstretched arm and stiffened hand, both features of the Nazi salute, are mere coincidences? Of course it's been modified, that's why it's a pseudo Nazi salute and not an actual one. It has to be changed so that people can do it with plausible deniability.

 

[brogdale]

So the outstretched arm and stiffened hand, both features of the Nazi salute, are mere coincidences? Of course it's been modified, that's why it's a pseudo Nazi salute and not an actual one. It has to be changed so that people can do it with plausible deniability.

But seriously, it could be anything...it's what the folk gesturing intend that matters.

 

[manny-p]

Therefore, it looks nothing like a Nazi salute. But here's the thing: that does not prevent people from thinking that it does.

Weird huh?

Maybe cause the people pictured doing it are doing it infront of Jewish places of worship, culture, concentration camps and war memorials to jewish people massacred.

 

[Casually Red]

Oh I don't know. The straightened arm in a different position to provide the same type of plausible denialibility that you're indulging in. I think it looks like one. You don't, or rather you do but you're trolling and pretending you don't. I think there's enough debate about it to suggest it does resemble one to many people.

Ive zero interest in trolling on this subject, it doesnt look even remotely like a nazi salute and dolphins have got sweet fuck all to do with either nazis or jews . And there hasnt been debate that suggests any such thing, theres been the french governments line against their most prominent and popular critic that they want silenced. That your happy to swallow uncritically .

 

[frogwoman]

I completely believe you.

But it obviously doesn't. The arm points in the wrong direction. The Nazis didn't do that thing with the fingers.

Therefore, it looks nothing like a Nazi salute. But here's the thing: that does not prevent people from thinking that it does.

Weird huh?

I just don't get why you're making this argument, he's obviously a complete scumbag

 

[xslavearcx]

Not just from an anarchist perspective.

Alan Dershowitz has been pushing this line hard in recent years. The argument runs as follows:

"All peoples have a right to self-determination; but anti-Zionists deny this right to the Jews alone; therefore anti-Zionism is anti-semitism."

It's obviously a crap argument, and I doubt you need me to tell you why. But I will if you like.

is that really how that kinda argument goes down in your opinion? Reads a bit straw mannish to me to be honest...

 

[manny-p]

Ive zero interest in trolling on this subject, it doesnt look even remotely like a nazi salute and dolphins have got sweet fuck all to do with either nazis or jews . And there hasnt been debate that suggests any such thing, theres been the french governments line against their most prominent and popular critic that they want silenced. That your happy to swallow uncritically .

Are you for real?

 

[Casually Red]

Oh I don't know. The straightened arm in a different position to provide the same type of plausible denialibility that you're indulging in. I think it looks like one. You don't, or rather you do but you're trolling and pretending you don't. I think there's enough debate about it to suggest it does resemble one to many people.

please explain this to me...why in the name of fuck would I even remotely want to engage in plausible deniability to cover for a fascist salute, in your esteemed opinion. What on earth would be my motivation in that regard .

thisll be interesting no doubt

 

[Casually Red]

Are you for real?

if youve a point make one

 

[frogwoman]

And this is another thing.

How does it look like a Nazi salute?

It doesn't really, does it?

And even if you claim it's an "upside down Nazi salute," that would normally be interpreted as a sign of contempt, as when a flag is flown upside down.

People are just seeing whatever they want to see in this story.

So writing songs to take the piss out of the holocaust like dieudonne has done, starting 'anti-zionist' political parties with former members of far-right groups, etc, is all right? No he's just being anti establishment, leave him alone..