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Anelka's quenelle

I just think any sort of politics that relies on celebrity "endorsement", celebs, "comedians", footballers etc is sort of gonna be a bad idea really, the sort of behaviour I've seen in my neighbourhood the last few days with people helping out with the floods, lending each other trolleys, complete strangers offering to do shopping and collect sandbags etc, gives me a lot of hope, a lot more so than the likes of these celebs who are feted as some sort of popular heroes by the left etc who think it's great that "its getting people talking about politics" when actually we don't need celebs telling us what to do really.
 
treelover said:
Incredible to see ostensibly decent ordinary people doing the 'quenelle' outside the Anne Frank House, the Wailing Wall, even Auschwitz, no ambiguity there at all, what is going on?
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it might have something to do with the fact that the french establishments persuance of the neo liberal EU project relies heavily on the Auschwitz theme as a moral justification for the entire EU project . If your anti EU your therefore being some sort of a nationalist, and nationalism leads to Auschwitz . Thats the message that gets constantly hammered home by the establishment over there. We have to have this infernal unending beauracracy that disempowers citizens and puts them out of work with nothing they can do about it otherwise therell be nations, and ultimately Auschwitz . As the french establishment cant champion neo liberal economics on any type of moral grounds it resorts to silencing dissent by use of collective guilt over the holocaust, pretty cynically .

French people who were born generations after those events are being told not to dissent from the establishment line because to go any other direction than theirs leads straight to Auschwitz . Despite not being born until generations later they should feel guilt, and to atone for that guilt they have to support the EU and its policies, otherwise its the road back to Auschwitz .

Theres a resentment at having to take that collective guilt on board thats tied in with accepting the political status quo as well. And from what I can see thats why french people who im pretty sure arent fascists are doing this stuff . Even the FN aspect of it doesnt really wash...in recent years Le Pen herself has been heavily courting the french jewish lobby , with her anti Islamism.

it looks to me like the quennelle in front of those places by those ordinary people is a fuck you to that . Not to the victims of the holocaust as such but to the way their murders are being used by the establishment to persue its own aims and silence dissent. Thats how it looks to me .

And thats not to support it by any means, i think its an extremely tasteless, crappy and disrespectful way to go about making an anti establishment point . But ultimately thats what I think it is . People with no or insecure jobs sick to the back teeth of being told about a war that ended generations before they were born, as a justification for the policies that are fucking them today .

And im not buying this inverted upside down nazi salute shit for a minute, thats a complete load of nonsense that doesnt stand up to any scrutiny at all, we are definitely being lied to and deceived on that point .
 
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elbows said:
And the passing of much time since world war 2 seems to reveal that the potential poisons of populism have not changed.
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so wed better have the EU and neo liberalism as the antidote ? Im pretty sure thats not your reponse but it certainly is the french establishments.

Personally I think its a reaction to the constant repetition and usage of the Auschwitz theme by the french political establishment to silence its critics, not any type of support for what happened in Auschwitz .Youre lucky enough to live in a country that wasnt occupied by the nazis . The political dynamics of guilt over the holocaust and collaboration isnt something you have to experience as a game your own establishment play . In Britain instead they use the poppy to justify how we are all in it together for the greater good, in France the Shoah .

Just consider for a minute how respectful youd feel if your own establishment , right and left, constantly used the Auschwitz theme to justify their own anti worker policies

And im more of the opinion now the furore that has emerged against Anelka and Dieudonne from within the french establishment has a lot more to do with a government thats sitting on a 14 percent approval rating . Thats not to say either of them are great guys, I dont have much time for either . But theres a massive whiff of bullshit coming off this the deeper you look into it .
 
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Casually Red said:
it looks to me like the quennelle in front of those places by those ordinary people is a fuck you to that . Not to the victims of the holocaust as such but to the way their murders are being used by the establishment to persue its own aims and silence dissent. Thats how it looks to me .

And im not buying this inverted upside down nazi salute shit for a minute, thats a complete load of nonsense that doesnt stand up to any scrutiny at all, we are definitely being lied to and deceived on that point .
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What about this example, outside a Jewish school where three children and a rabbi were shot dead?

quenelle_orh-torah.jpg


Not anti-semitic?
 
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goldenecitrone said:
What about this example, outside a Jewish school where three children and a rabbi were shot dead?

quenelle_orh-torah.jpg


Not anti-semitic?
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a middle finger or a wanker sign can be used for anti semitic purposes, it doesnt make them anti semitic gestures in themselves. Ive no doubt as well anti semitic bigots use the thing for anti semitic purposes too .
 
Casually Red said:
it looks to me like the quennelle in front of those places by those ordinary people is a fuck you to that . Not to the victims of the holocaust as such but to the way their murders are being used by the establishment to persue its own aims and silence dissent. Thats how it looks to me .
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Knowing that anti-semitic bigots make that gesture as a sign of their anti-semitism, does it still seem likely that people making that gesture at Auschwitz are making an anti-French establishment gesture?
 
if they arent nazis or fascists then yes

eta

are you seriously claiming Diedonnes followers, the people who pack out his shows are anti semitic...fascists..doing nazi style salutes
 
Casually Red said:
it might have something to do with the fact that the french establishments persuance of the neo liberal EU project relies heavily on the Auschwitz theme as a moral justification for the entire EU project . If your anti EU your therefore being some sort of a nationalist, and nationalism leads to Auschwitz . Thats the message that gets constantly hammered home by the establishment over there. We have to have this infernal unending beauracracy that disempowers citizens and puts them out of work with nothing they can do about it otherwise therell be nations, and ultimately Auschwitz . As the french establishment cant champion neo liberal economics on any type of moral grounds it resorts to silencing dissent by use of collective guilt over the holocaust, pretty cynically .

French people who were born generations after those events are being told not to dissent from the establishment line because to go any other direction than theirs leads straight to Auschwitz . Despite not being born until generations later they should feel guilt, and to atone for that guilt they have to support the EU and its policies, otherwise its the road back to Auschwitz .

Theres a resentment at having to take that collective guilt on board thats tied in with accepting the political status quo as well. And from what I can see thats why french people who im pretty sure arent fascists are doing this stuff . Even the FN aspect of it doesnt really wash...in recent years Le Pen herself has been heavily courting the french jewish lobby , with her anti Islamism.

it looks to me like the quennelle in front of those places by those ordinary people is a fuck you to that . Not to the victims of the holocaust as such but to the way their murders are being used by the establishment to persue its own aims and silence dissent. Thats how it looks to me .

And thats not to support it by any means, i think its an extremely tasteless, crappy and disrespectful way to go about making an anti establishment point . But ultimately thats what I think it is . People with no or insecure jobs sick to the back teeth of being told about a war that ended generations before they were born, as a justification for the policies that are fucking them today .

And im not buying this inverted upside down nazi salute shit for a minute, thats a complete load of nonsense that doesnt stand up to any scrutiny at all, we are definitely being lied to and deceived on that point .
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Nailed it. Thanks.
 
Casually Red said:
it might have something to do with the fact that the french establishments persuance of the neo liberal EU project relies heavily on the Auschwitz theme as a moral justification for the entire EU project . If your anti EU your therefore being some sort of a nationalist, and nationalism leads to Auschwitz . Thats the message that gets constantly hammered home by the establishment over there. We have to have this infernal unending beauracracy that disempowers citizens and puts them out of work with nothing they can do about it otherwise therell be nations, and ultimately Auschwitz . As the french establishment cant champion neo liberal economics on any type of moral grounds it resorts to silencing dissent by use of collective guilt over the holocaust, pretty cynically .

French people who were born generations after those events are being told not to dissent from the establishment line because to go any other direction than theirs leads straight to Auschwitz . Despite not being born until generations later they should feel guilt, and to atone for that guilt they have to support the EU and its policies, otherwise its the road back to Auschwitz .

Theres a resentment at having to take that collective guilt on board thats tied in with accepting the political status quo as well. And from what I can see thats why french people who im pretty sure arent fascists are doing this stuff . Even the FN aspect of it doesnt really wash...in recent years Le Pen herself has been heavily courting the french jewish lobby , with her anti Islamism.

it looks to me like the quennelle in front of those places by those ordinary people is a fuck you to that . Not to the victims of the holocaust as such but to the way their murders are being used by the establishment to persue its own aims and silence dissent. Thats how it looks to me .

And thats not to support it by any means, i think its an extremely tasteless, crappy and disrespectful way to go about making an anti establishment point . But ultimately thats what I think it is . People with no or insecure jobs sick to the back teeth of being told about a war that ended generations before they were born, as a justification for the policies that are fucking them today .

And im not buying this inverted upside down nazi salute shit for a minute, thats a complete load of nonsense that doesnt stand up to any scrutiny at all, we are definitely being lied to and deceived on that point .
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Apologist horseshit. Rancid.
 
And there's loads of antisemitism in France, young Jewish people living in parts of Paris are also the victims of police racism etc.
 
frogwoman said:
And there's loads of antisemitism in France, young Jewish people living in parts of Paris are also the victims of police racism etc.
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But no-one has denied any of this. Have they?

With all respect Frogster, you do this a lot. You seem to see arguments that are not there.
 
Casually Red said:
it might have something to do with the fact that the french establishments persuance of the neo liberal EU project relies heavily on the Auschwitz theme as a moral justification for the entire EU project . If your anti EU your therefore being some sort of a nationalist, and nationalism leads to Auschwitz . Thats the message that gets constantly hammered home by the establishment over there. We have to have this infernal unending beauracracy that disempowers citizens and puts them out of work with nothing they can do about it otherwise therell be nations, and ultimately Auschwitz . As the french establishment cant champion neo liberal economics on any type of moral grounds it resorts to silencing dissent by use of collective guilt over the holocaust, pretty cynically .

French people who were born generations after those events are being told not to dissent from the establishment line because to go any other direction than theirs leads straight to Auschwitz . Despite not being born until generations later they should feel guilt, and to atone for that guilt they have to support the EU and its policies, otherwise its the road back to Auschwitz .

Theres a resentment at having to take that collective guilt on board thats tied in with accepting the political status quo as well. And from what I can see thats why french people who im pretty sure arent fascists are doing this stuff . Even the FN aspect of it doesnt really wash...in recent years Le Pen herself has been heavily courting the french jewish lobby , with her anti Islamism.

it looks to me like the quennelle in front of those places by those ordinary people is a fuck you to that . Not to the victims of the holocaust as such but to the way their murders are being used by the establishment to persue its own aims and silence dissent. Thats how it looks to me .

And thats not to support it by any means, i think its an extremely tasteless, crappy and disrespectful way to go about making an anti establishment point . But ultimately thats what I think it is . People with no or insecure jobs sick to the back teeth of being told about a war that ended generations before they were born, as a justification for the policies that are fucking them today .

And im not buying this inverted upside down nazi salute shit for a minute, thats a complete load of nonsense that doesnt stand up to any scrutiny at all, we are definitely being lied to and deceived on that point .
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How do you find yourself outside a former concentration camp making an "anti-establishment" gesture that looks quite like a Nazi salute without thinking "this might end up looking a bit anti-semitic, maybe I'll leave it"? You either are actually anti-semitic or you are a fucking idiot. In either case, I have no sympathy for the person in question.
 
phildwyer said:
OK, I thought you were addressing CR's post. I agree with you about celebrity politics. I could never support anything that seeks celebrity endorsement.
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The point is that antisemitism is not anti establishment it never has and never will be and by saying it is he's (dieudonne) essentially promoting ideas of a Jewish conspiracy. There are ways to make the point about how anti racism and anti fascism have to some extent been coopted by capital without doing/saying this stuff
 
frogwoman said:
The point is that antisemitism is not anti establishment it never has and never will be and by saying it is he's (dieudonne) essentially promoting ideas of a Jewish conspiracy.
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I honestly don't see how.

I also know that accusations of "promoting ideas of a Jewish conspiracy" can be used to quell legitimate dissent and rational opinion.

For example they are constantly used to descredit (or at least make unsayable) the manifest and important truth that American middle east policy is determined by the Zionist lobby.
 
frogwoman said:
I'm not arguing with anyone I'm saying its not an 'anti establishment' thing, how could it be, dieudonne is a millionaire
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sos gerard depardieu and Brigitte Bardot, are you seriously going to argue they support the french political establishment

Is Russell Brand pro British establishment too
 
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