An open question to all SWP members on u75

[danno_at_work]

Spelling and word order is off putting? You stupid offensive cunt.

you are doing it again

I changed nothing other than the order of words in the capitals (and 'fot to 'for') Remember that your own post shows the original undedited post. You better take back that sugesstion that i changed anything else, esp substantive content back right fucking now.

last edited by you, no reason again, dick

 

[silentNate]

Spelling and word order is off putting? You stupid offensive cunt.

Such a bright and articulate poster- you can see why the SWP would go to you for advice.

 

[butchersapron]

you are doing it again

last edited by you, no reason again, dick

Nope, added "Or very quickly grow the balls to call me a liar"

which you didn't.

Nate, no one, and i mean no one takes you seriously - why then, should i? Yap, Yap, might get a scrap, might be a leftover...have somne fucking respect you sad fucking sack of worthless shit. You not getting kicks hassling girls via PM anymore?
Yap fucking yap...

 

[butchersapron]

you are doing it again

last edited by you, no reason again, dick

Right, the record shows as does your own post unless you choose to edit it and destroy the evidence shows that you are either lying or do not undretstand that i can show that you are either wrong or lying. It's that simple.

 

[danno_at_work]

Such a bright and articulate poster- you can see why the SWP would go to you for advice.

we did, we are now all called leon and speak in an american accent to disguise our identities, and we don't do anything or talk to each other cos walls have ears
we are neither left nor right but we have found a third way by posting on the internet.

viva my keyboard

 

[danno_at_work]

Right, the record shows as does your own post unless you choose to edit it and destroy the evidence shows that you are either lying or do not undretstand that i can show that you are either wrong or lying. It's that simple.

in english??

 

[butchersapron]

in english??

You are a liar.

 

[editor]

You not getting kicks hassling girls via PM anymore?

Could you explain this please while reflecting on the causes of my rapidly plummeting interest in letting these boards be used for internal SWP bunfights.

Who's been hassling who via PM?

 

[danno_at_work]

You are a liar.

you are a pillock


*heads off to sandpit*

 

[butchersapron]

Could you explain this please while reflecting on the causes of my rapidly plummeting interest in letting these boards be used for internal SWP bunfights.

Who's been hassling who via PM?

SN - was hassling Geri via PM, changed his tag line as well, then apologised, then took his apology back and said it was forced upon him - since then he's been uniformly hostile to her, and since i started going out with her been uniformly hostile to me as well - see his intervention on this thread.

 

[danno_at_work]

SN - was hassling Geri via PM, changed his tag line as well, then apologised, then took his apology back and said it was forced upon him - since then he's been uniformly hostile to her, and since i started going out with her been uniformly hostile to me as well - see his intervention on this thread.

what has that got to do with you changing your posts????

or me

ignore my pm butchers, ta

 

[butchersapron]

Should say, he's been uniformly hostile to one person and people around her - hassling girls plural might not be quite right...changing tag line and that is well creepy.

 

[silentNate]

Bollox- two PM's were involved, one asking her to remove comments the other to apologise for tagline change.
Get a fucking grip and stop harassing me with bullshit theories

 

[butchersapron]

Bollox- two PM's were involved, one asking her to remove comments the other to apologise for tagline change.
Get a fucking grip and stop harassing me with bullshit theories

You lie. You know you lie.

 

[danno_at_work]

this is getting silly

i'm going to home and to bed

butchers didn't mean to offend

see if anyone posts on topic by tommorrow

good night all

dan

{streches and yawns}

 

[silentNate]

Fuck off- if you don't like what I have to say put me on ignore rather than trying to bait me the whole time. And if your going to talk about harassment then another poster might want to comment about you

 

[butchersapron]

Fuck off- if you don't like what I have to say put me on ignore rather than trying to bait me the whole time. And if your going to talk about harassment then another poster might want to comment about you

Yeah, go on then give us all a laugh..who is it pk?

 

[silentNate]

Think about it butchers, oh sorry you like winding up people so it could be half the site. As I said, put me on ignore or fuck off.

 

[gurrier]

What should the SWP do to avoid infiltration like this?

The short answer is disband. The long answer is the following.

First of all, this is nothing to do with the open-ness of the organisation. The SWP is not, by any stretch of the imagination an open organisation. They do not publsh minutes of their meetings or conferences and these are not open to the media or the public, it is almost impossible to find out who within the organisation takes decisions or who holds important positions, none of their internal debates are open to scrutiny by the public, I don't believe they maintain any publicly accessible register of their political positions. Even by the low, low standards of bourgeois political parties, they are far from being an open organisation in the sense that the word normally has anyway. Opaque and secretive would be more honest adjectives to describe them. Of course they can (and do) claim revolutionary imperatives that force them to operate like this - the necessity of hiding the details of their operation from the repressive arms of the state - but to claim that the organisation is open is ridiculous.

The one possible way that they could claim open-ness is the open-door policy towards recruits. Basically, as long as you agree that bad things are bad, they will sign you up (Are you against war? - then join the socialists!!!).

This open-door recruitment policy does not indicate any level of openness in the organisation's culture, in fact it is only possible because of the extremely closed, secretive, unaccountable and hierarchical nature of the organisation. Similar recruitment policies are common among many of the obscuratinist cults such as the scientologists and their ilk and are impossible to practice in any organisation that has any meaningful level of democracy, transparency and accountability - the real measures of an organisation's open-ness.

To explain, an organisation where members have any real say in the decisions that are made has to be relatively sure that new members have a fairly good understanding of the organisation's core politics - otherwise the organisation would shift politics with every wave of new members. This requires a considerable amount of transparency - because new members have to be clear in advance about what they are getting in to, they need to be able to read the policies of the organisation and observe its practice before signing up.

Such open door recruitment policies are exclusively practiced by hierarchical authoritarian organisations where the membership has essentially no say in the decisions made. If new members are to have an equal say with everybody else in decisions, the organisation needs to be sure that they understand the politics before they join. If, on the other hand, all decisions are made by an unaccountable leadership and the new members are merely an exploitable human resource for the leadership, it doesn't matter what they believe, as long as they can sell papers and carry out whatever other menial tasks that they are given.

The other common feature of authoritarian cults is that promotion within the organisation depends not upon any ability to master complex concepts and produce original thought within that theoretical framework, but on the ability to reproduce the leadership's positions and to work as agents of the leadership. Anybody who is familiar with any of the SWP-like political cults knows that the leadership generally gathers a bunch of new recruits around themselves who they use as 'attack-dogs' to launch assaults on their political opponents. New members who demonstrate an ability to skillfully regurgitate leadership lines and use them to launch attacks on dissident opinions are rewarded with promotion.

Now, unfortunately for the SWP, these flaws are not easy to remedy. They go to the core of their authoritarian politics and for them to solve them, they would need to abandon most of the tenets of Leninism. This is obviously very unlikely, but even if they were to have a rush of blood to the head, they would still probably be better off just disbanding and starting from scratch.

It is rare for the social sciences to produce conclusive evidence about the worth of political theory. However, due to the vast amount of experimental evidence compiled during the 20th century, any rational observer can say a few things:
1) Leninism begets brutal tyrannies.
2) Centralisation of power in the hands of any minority is extraordinarily inefficient. Capitalism abandoned Taylorism and the notion of top-down centralised planning well before the second world war - because it simply doesn't work.

Somehow the Leninists have managed to stick their heads in the sand and ignore the overwhelmingly and exceptionally conclusive evidence of these facts. Their politics are stuck in a rigid theoretical framework that any rational person would have abandoned a long time ago as it was proved wrong again and again. Their politics are simply crap and all their other problems flow from this.

 

[butchersapron]

Think about it butchers, oh sorry you like winding up people so it could be half the site. As I said, put me on ignore or fuck off.

Name it or shut up - doesn't work like that. Because, you've just tried another bluff that's failed.

You don't accuse me of doing what you did and then just get to walk off. Put up.

 

[silentNate]

Not a bluff- I'll get them to PM you your bullshit tomorrow. Sleep well.

 

[butchersapron]

Not a bluff- I'll get them to PM you your bullshit tomorrow. Sleep well.

How handy, a PM and tomorrow as well...watch out don't catch cold and be off the boards for 5 days til it blows over or anything...

What a joker.

 

[Flavour]

... nate and danno succeed in derailing my attempt at gettin some answers from the SWP but what do i get? fuck all, and insults from danno. thank you gurrier for bringing us back on topic.

 

[danno_at_work]

gurrier
good post well written but incorrect
i will respond when i get a spare 1/2 hour

 

[Zonk]

gurrier
good post well written but incorrect
i will respond when i get a spare 1/2 hour

Incorrect? Ha! So which bit doesn't the SWP groupie like then?

And don't pretend you aren't looking at my posts Danno, you sad twat, you are too much of an egotistical bastard not to!

 

[Zonk]

PM from Danno

live in london?

fancy a beer?
have this out head to head

You sad twat, you know full well I don't live in London. But I'd love to pay you a visit next time I'm down. Nugget.

 

[Pickman's model]

as i'm sure the @kids on here would agree , we are a very creative and spontanious(sp?) class, do we want to put a break on this ??

the working class is amazingly creative. however, the swp isn't, as can easily be seen from its pisspoor propaganda (take a look in bookmarks at the big poster book of anti-war art, compare and contrast with the swc efforts etc ad nauseam) and heard from its pisspoor chants. the swp and creativity are two very distant cousins, perhaps because of the swp leadership's unfamiliarity with the working class. except for their maids, of course.

so we had two fash infiltrate us in manc, a problem i grant you but these two did spend a year doing swp stuff,

so it's ok because you got some work out of them? ffs! for shame!

not very articulate sorry i'll try again tommorrow

so we can read some more arsery?

 

[Pickman's model]

has george galloway found anything to say about his pisspoor party's members' lists and so on being stolen by the bnp? or is he not bothered about the complete fiasco his allies and he find themselves in?

 

[Pickman's model]

it's quiet --- too quiet!

 

[fanciful]

good points gurrier but it would be more accurate to say the reason the swp have embraced authoritarian bureaucratism is their rejection of Leninism not the embracing of it. Lenin was clear the party needed to consist of cadres, professional revolutionaries, who understood with the party politics and could critically hold the leadership to account and replace it if necessary. quite the opposite to the swp.
this is why the failure on this question isn't the case of some isolated error but it fundamental to their political method their worship of spontaneity and rejection of communist politics. in essence that's why they're so crap.