An open question to all SWP members on u75

[silentNate]

I am sure an announcement will be made by the SWP as soon as the BNP publishes its moles 'findings'. The rank and file in Manchester have already been made aware of the situation through party members.

this is just the usual baseless SWP bashing that to be honest we're used to by now.

there is no point going on and on about how easy the SWP is to infiltrate when i can say with confidence that they were suspected by NO-ONE, including members of numerous left factions.
It happened.
As the biggest and most visible trotskyist organisation on Manchester campus we were an obvious target . They have fuck all on us anyway, if you want to know about the SWP, read the fucking paper! I'm more concerned about the nazis having access to peoples addresses.

Yes there are lessons to be learnt, and I'm sure they will be in the future. In the mean time we need to put aside all this and rally against these fascists.

I don't know trickytree23 from Adam though I agree with him on this, but this issue has been gone over again and again to the point where 'editor' has come on to threads to state that this is not an SWP site!
The SWP is an open organisation which anyone can join, unfortunately this has happened. The fact is that more posters have used this as a reason to attack the SWP rather than look at the threat that the BNp is to the average working man in this country. Whilst I'm sure its fun to have a go at those out there doing something of a political nature I tire of attacks on the SWP whilst the real threat are racists in the BNp using threats and intimidation against those of us that wish to change the society in which we live for the better
Go on- have a go at the SWP but recognise that the true enemy are facists, for evidence of this look at the political statements of the two parties. I'm not an SWP member but have friends that are- the fact that both my address and theirs has fallen into the hands of disrepritable cunts wanting to use this information is worrying but life will go on. FIT have taken my picture on a number of occasions and I'm used to that- right-wing racist fuckwits are another story...
ATTACK THE REAL ENEMY


Just to add- Sacred Spirit can go fuck himself

 

[Solidarnosc]

Whilst I'm sure its fun to have a go at those out there doing something of a political nature I tire of attacks on the SWP whilst the real threat are racists in the BNp using threats and intimidatiomn against those of us that wish to change the society in which we live for the better
Go on- have a go at the SWP but recognise that the true enemy are facists, for evidence of this look at the political statements of the two parties.

You're exactly right, Nate - unfortunatly, for while there are people like Zonk, who get that fumbling feeling in their crotch every time a thread about how 'shit' the SWP is comes up, there will be threads like this.

 

[Solidarnosc]

How do you lot manage to interact with the every day folks on the street on your paper sales with your fingers in your ears? You do have your fingers in your ears, quite clearly, because you never listen to anybody else's views without reciting a lot of Trot nonsense.

Why do you do that?

Is it because everyone else is so politically immature (bless) that they need educating? Political indoctrinating?

Comment?

Orange?

You accuse me of being a Trot.

I answer back in a political way.

You call me a Trot.

I answer back in a political way.

You call me a Trot.

You can't discuss politics while dropping the politics. But I do doubt whether you have any. Explains many of your recent posts anyhoo...

 

[Zonk]

You're exactly right, Nate - unfortunatly, for while people like Zonk, who get that fumbling feeling in their crotch every time a thread about the SWP comes up, there will be threads like this.

People won't post threads like these, if people like you lot paid a little bit more notice of what was going on around you.

Have you seen me start many anti-SWP threads? No.

Just gives me an opportunity to educate you about the real world every time one comes up.

 

[Solidarnosc]

No, but you're the only poster on UKP I've seen of late who tries to argue against the SWP without having any politics to back it up with.

Hence why I've stopped using politics against you, you can't fight a battle of politics with an unarmed person. That would just be unsportin'...

 

[butchersapron]

What about pro-swp posters with no politics? Is it unsportin' for the rest of us to respond to them with anything but abuse and piss-taking?

Good enough for you right?

 

[Solidarnosc]

What about pro-swp posters with no politics? Is it unsportin' for the rest of us to respond to them with anything but abuse and piss-taking?

Good enough for you right?

Butchers, look at Zonk's attacks on the SWP as of late. They've had very little substance to them and say very much the same thing.

Now, I don't mind debating with someone who says the SWP is shit but has some politics (and I don't mean political theory) behind what they say. Zonk just seems to trot out ('scuse the pun) the same shit every time.

Ergo, it's hard to debate back when you get the same shit. Every time.

 

[silentNate]

What about pro-swp posters with no politics? Is it unsportin' for the rest of us to respond to them with anything but abuse and piss-taking?

Good enough for you right?

Butchers- responding to any poster with 'abuse and piss-taking' doesn't win arguments. To win arguments you should listen to their point then let them know where you feel they are wrong...
Until you learn to do this I fail to see you as anything but a distraction

 

[butchersapron]

Butchers, look at Zonk's attacks on the SWP as of late. They've had very little substance to them and say very much the same thing.

Now, I don't mind debating with someone who says the SWP is shit but has some politics (and I don't mean political theory) behind what they say. Zonk just seems to trot out ('scuse the pun) the same shit every time.

Ergo, it's hard to debate back when you get the same shit. Every time.

So, same question, becaue where i'm sitting Gumbert, Cliify's and RW's stuff looks exactly the same - but with less personal understanding through experience.

You are not the arbiter of what is 'political' either - if Zonk's experience of the SWP is so bad then that's political - you cannot define these responses away - they represent something - and they represent something real. You know that the SWP is disliked by a whole range of people with differing political opinions and it's simply not good enough to try and wave it under the carpet by saying that *you* don't find it political enough. The very fact he's writing those posts is political.

And that's to ignore the frankly pre-pubescent responses of RW and cliffy to political points put to them.

 

[butchersapron]

Butchers- responding to any poster with 'abuse and piss-taking' doesn't win arguments. To win arguments you should listen to their point then let them know where you feel they are wrong...
Until you learn to do this I fail to see you as anything but a distraction

The day i'm concerned with someone who posts more smileys than they do words is the day i'm off these boards.

You are not now, and never will be a distraction me. You're barely on my radar sunshine.

It is, however, the best you can hope for amongst the general population of posters i feel.

 

[Zonk]

No, but you're the only poster on UKP I've seen of late who tries to argue against the SWP without having any politics to back it up with.

Hence why I've stopped using politics against you, you can't fight a battle of politics with an unarmed person. That would just be unsportin'...

Yes, exactly what I was going on about above.

Using politics against me?

I don't call continous Trot reference to the Party etc politics. Problem for you is nor do most people. Politics is surely about people is it not? Preferably the ones who are alive. What do you lot offer the working class? Patronising balls that has no relation to their lives whatsoever.

I'll let you into a little secret. Most people don't have a clue what you lot are on about. They certainly aren't interested in the politicians they've got already so why do you assume that they give a toss about you? Hate to tell you-they don't. That's why your on your way out.

In terms of the majority of the rest of the left? They don't understand you either and trust me it ain't jealousy.

My apparent lack of politics as you so put it works for me fine thanks.

And during my daily political work? I seem to be able to relate to the working class quite well thanks. They certainly don't sigh when they see me coming.

 

[Solidarnosc]

So, same question, becaue where i'm sitting Gumbert, Cliify's and RW's stuff looks exactly the same - but with less personal understanding through experience.

You are not the arbiter of what is 'political' either - if Zonk's experience of the SWP is so bad then that's political - you cannot define these responses away - they represent something - and they represent something real. You know that the SWP is disliked by a whole range of people with differing political opinions and it's simply not good enough to try and wave it under the carpet by saying that *you* don't find it political enough. The very fact he's writing those posts is political.

And that's to ignore the frankly pre-pubescent responses of RW and cliffy to political points put to them.

If Zonk has political differences with the SWP, that's fine. I'm more than happy to debate with him/her about his/her differences. But if all he says is "The SWP is shit" and then dismisses everything I say by sheer virtue of my SWP membership then it's not exactly inducive to debate, is it?

I've debated plenty of people on here and offline about the SWP. But they've had point to make as to why they don't like the SWP. Sometimes I win the argument, sometimes I loose. But at least they have given me something to debate.

If, and when, Zonk actually stops posting the same thing and actually posts his/her disagreements in a coherent manner, then I can debate him/her. Fair enough, don't you think?

 

[Zonk]

As for repetition.....please.

Have a look at some of your posts.

 

[Solidarnosc]

As for repetition.....please.

Have a look at some of your posts.

Ah, right, yeah. That must be me just saying "Trotsky is great."

 

[butchersapron]

If Zonk has political differences with the SWP, that's fine. I'm more than happy to debate with him/her about his/her differences. But if all he says is "The SWP is shit" and then dismisses everything I say by sheer virtue of my SWP membership then it's not exactly inducive to debate, is it?

I've debated plenty of people on here and offline about the SWP. But they've had point to make as to why they don't like the SWP. Sometimes I win the argument, sometimes I loose. But at least they have given me something to debate.

If, and when, Zonk actually stops posting the same thing and actually posts his/her disagreements in a coherent manner, then I can debate him/her. Fair enough, don't you think?

If you only kept to the same standards eh soli? like your deeply political amswer:

"Oh FFS.

Write to the national office if you're so arsed."

That is not the mark of a serious person to me. Why should i or anyone else alligned with either the far-left or anarchism enage with you after that incoherent nonsense. I'd rather not - fair enough don't you agree?

 

[silentNate]

You are not now, and never will be a distraction me. You're barely on my radar sunshine.

Nah- once again personal abuse, you see me post smilies on other threads and feel my working class voice is irrelevant so ignore any political point I might attempt to make. If you think I'm thick then say so because your post is clearly over my head and I've not spent my life studying politics so obviously I know nothing. Others on this site come to share ideas and debate whilst you feel the need to get into personal arguments rather than political argument...

Oh yeah see, wouldn't want to disappoint you by not posting a few smilies.

 

[butchersapron]

Nah- once again personal abuse, you see me post smilies on other threads and feel my working class voice is irrelevant so ignore any political point I might attempt to make. If you think I'm thick then say so because your post is clearly over my head and I've not spent my life studying politics so obviously I know nothing. Others on this site come to share ideas and debate whilst you feel the need to get into personal arguments rather than political argument...

Oh yeah see, wouldn't want to disappoint you by not posting a few smilies.

How deeply dishonest of you nate - you saw an oppo to get a kick in - tried to take it but can't keep up, Oh dear. You're the one looking daft.

I feel 'your working class voice is irrelevant'? Are you getting desperate now? I think your working class voice talks shit mate - i've always told you that, so have plenty of other people.

You've trieds to start a personal argument, lost your bottle and then accused the person you tried it on with of starting a personal argument. All in a nights work though eh nate?

You never prosper from this sort of stuff nate. Honestly.

 

[Groucho]

How deeply dishonest of you nate - you saw an oppo to get a kick in - tried to take it but can't keep up, Oh dear. You're the one looking daft.

Not from where I'm sitting!

 

[butchersapron]

Tell me why not then.

Edit - and i suggest that you learn just a litle bit about nates long record of persnal abuse before you take it as read that what's said in this thread is the entire history of what's happned between us on these boards, and so there's nothing, no not a damn thing motovating him in his first post to me...

 

[Solidarnosc]

I don't call continous Trot reference to the Party etc politics. Problem for you is nor do most people. Politics is surely about people is it not?

Of course.

Preferably the ones who are alive.

Indeed.

What do you lot offer the working class? Patronising balls that has no relation to their lives whatsoever.

Let me tell you an ancedote.

When I first moved to Bury, which was around October of last year, Bury MBC announced plans to slash social service spending by millions a year. They announced it on page 16 of the Prestwich Advertiser. At first, people were quite angry about it but there was no unified opposition to it, so it looked as if the council were going to get away with it. The most hardest hit were going to be old people's homes.

Then, some of us in the SWP thought it was a fight that needed to be fought. Not, as you might claim, because we wanted to sell papers or recruit people to 'thuparty', but because we cared. And, along with Socialist Alliance, Labour Party members and concerned individuals, we all launched a campaign against the council - by lobbying, petitioning, letter writing etc.

End result? The council were forced to back down. This is just a case in hand because it was something I was involved with personally. I'm sure if you meet other SWP members then they can tell you stories similar to this one.

I'll let you into a little secret. Most people don't have a clue what you lot are on about.

Yes.

They certainly aren't interested in the politicians they've got already so why do you assume that they give a toss about you? Hate to tell you-they don't. That's why your on your way out.

So, by the same token, why should they care for your politics? If, by following your logic, most ordinary people don't care for your politics then they aren't interested in what you have to say either. I'm not going to inflate the importance of the SWP. We are still a tiny minority of the population. Again, if you ask any SWP member, they will tell you the same thing.

In terms of the majority of the rest of the left? They don't understand you either and trust me it ain't jealousy.

I wouldn't say they don't understand us - they have an understanding, and they have come to the conclusion that they don't agree with us. Which is fari enough.

My apparent lack of politics as you so put it works for me fine thanks.

Well, it seems you do have politics. But you should use them, because then people will listen to you. Otherwise you sound like a broken record.

And during my daily political work? I seem to be able to relate to the working class quite well thanks. They certainly don't sigh when they see me coming.

I can also relate to the working class and I work in Oldham mate. Not exactly the best place for the SWP to operate but people are interesting in what I've had to say. Funnily enough quite a few of them have bought Socialist Worker - two buy it from me every week. Far from sighing, eh?

 

[danno_at_work]

How do you lot manage to interact with the every day folks on the street on your paper sales with your fingers in your ears? You do have your fingers in your ears, quite clearly, because you never listen to anybody else's views without reciting a lot of Trot nonsense.

Why do you do that?

Is it because everyone else is so politically immature (bless) that they need educating? Political indoctrinating?

Comment?

Orange?

i'll have an orange ................. on one condition i can stick it in my ears if you ever open your gob.

took you off ignore.......... back on now

just being immature

 

[Solidarnosc]

If you only kept to the same standards eh soli? like your deeply political amswer:

"Oh FFS.

Write to the national office if you're so arsed."

That is not the mark of a serious person to me. Why should i or anyone else alligned with either the far-left or anarchism enage with you after that incoherent nonsense. I'd rather not - fair enough don't you agree?

But people are asking questions which have already been answered. That's where my frustrations came from - if people are going to post the same thing which has already been answered - several times - then what do you expect?

 

[danno_at_work]

What about pro-swp posters with no politics? Is it unsportin' for the rest of us to respond to them with anything but abuse and piss-taking?

Good enough for you right?

you talkin bout me?

 

[Zonk]

If, and when, Zonk actually stops posting the same thing and actually posts his/her disagreements in a coherent manner, then I can debate him/her. Fair enough, don't you think?

I shall endeavour to be more articulate and brush up on my apparent lack of 'politics' just for you from now on.

Thing is in my world as a single parent on a working class estate, I tend to be talking to you, and the kids, the neighbours, cooking, cleaning, organising a website, taking on delegated work, printing leaflets, kicking the cat and scratching my arse all at the same time.

Sometimes just saying 'you talk shit' is quicker and we all know where we stand. Don't you think?

 

[danno_at_work]

This message is hidden because Zonk is on your ignore list


look how much more relaxed i am

the smiley was for butch

 

[butchersapron]

But people are asking questions which have already been answered. That's where my frustrations came from - if people are going to post the same thing which has already been answered - several times - then what do you expect?

A better answer than that, or keep off the thread. You yourself admit that you know buggerall of what's going on.

 

[Solidarnosc]

I shall endeavour to be more articulate and brush up on my apparent lack of 'politics' just for you from now on.

Thing is in my world as a single parent on a working class estate, I tend to be talking to you, and the kids, the neighbours, cooking, cleaning, organising a website, taking on delegated work, printing leaflets, kicking the cat and scratching my arse all at the same time.

Sometimes just saying 'you talk shit' is quicker and we all know where we stand. Don't you think?

And I work fivety hours a week at B&Q, have to travel for two hours to get to work and two hours to get back again, I'm in the middle of sorting out moving to London to do my HND, my student loan, a new job, whilst also holding down a house, doing the cooking, cleaning, plus doing press work for RESPECT in the North West and activism for the SWP.

I'm not saying you have to write huge polemics and to have read Marx's collective works to debate with me. But just saying 'you talk shit' both A) fucks me right off and B) is very, very hard to engage with.

 

[butchersapron]

you talkin bout me?

No, i named who i meant - Gumbert, RW and Cliffy. You've got a sense of humour and you actuaall try to respond to what's posted.

 

[Solidarnosc]

A better answer than that, or keep off the thread. You yourself admit that you know buggerall of what's going on.

But the point is, the question has been ANSWERED on the actual thread breaking the news. I know I know bugger all. I'm pointing people in the right direction.

 

[silentNate]

Thing is in my world as a single parent on a working class estate, I tend to be talking to you, and the kids, the neighbours, cooking, cleaning, organising a website, taking on delegated work, printing leaflets, kicking the cat and scratching my arse all at the same time.

So why argue about the SWP rather than discuss these things then Zonk.
As moderators have stated Urban75 isn't an SWP site so why come here to slag them and make no posts on other topics if you have so much more going on and of interest to add to the site...