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    Lazy Llama

An open question to all SWP members on u75

right

i'm getting pissed off with this,
on the one hand we are an irrelevence, on the other we are the party that is stopping the glorious revolution by our tactics.

the reason why we are such a pain in the arse to you lot is the fact that we act as an organisation, (look it up butch)

i would much rather be in an open party than in some clandestine grouplet where you have to recite the complete works of marx before you get junior membership status.
as i'm sure the @kids on here would agree , we are a very creative and spontanious(sp?) class, do we want to put a break on this ??

now many of you have problems with the idea of trots, organisations, reality, but if yoy spent as much effort etc...etc

so we had two fash infiltrate us in manc, a problem i grant you but these two did spend a year doing swp stuff,

i'm not5 trying to be flip but do you lot really think the state dont infiltrate you lot???
as someone said dont worry about infiltration it means you get a fulltimer for free

not very articulate sorry i'll try again tommorrow
 
Head nor tail - too many false oppostions, inaccuracies and stereotypes to be taken seriously.

What about the problem? The thing we're talking about?
 
danno....

you are not answering my original questions about why your movement is complacent, endangering to its memebers and supporters and protecting the nazis
 
Flavour said:
danno....

you are not answering my original questions about why your movement is complacent, endangering to its memebers and supporters and protecting the nazis

not being funny but why do you give a shit, as has been pointed out on here before we are as bad as the fash and anyone who has anything to do with us deserves all they get.

do stop scoring points or post something useful


butch
Head nor tail - too many false oppostions, inaccuracies and stereotypes to be taken seriously.

bit like you politics
 
This from someone who puts a totally open party and a "clandestine grouplet where you have to recite the complete works of marx before you get junior membership" as the only real choices facing political groupings today. There is simply no other choice is there?

Do you *want* to go in the sandpit with Gumbert, RW and Cliffy?
 
read my original post...

and i am not trying to score points, derailer, i am trying to understand why you're group are so crap.
 
danno_at_work Quote:
Originally Posted by Flavour
danno....

you are not answering my original questions about why your movement is complacent, endangering to its memebers and supporters and protecting the nazis


not being funny but why do you give a shit, as has been pointed out on here before we are as bad as the fash and anyone who has anything to do with us deserves all they get.

do stop scoring points or post something useful


butch
Quote:
Head nor tail - too many false oppostions, inaccuracies and stereotypes to be taken seriously.


bit like you politics


Christ what a bunch of fucking muppets.

Idiots like you lot are a threat to fucking everyone. None of us would give a shit if this only involved you, you plank. It involves anyone who has any contact with you what so ever. How can anybody trust you?

Give yourself a kicking for fucksake!
 
butchersapron said:
This from someone who puts a totally open party and a "clandestine grouplet where you have to recite the complete works of marx before you get junior membership" as the only real choices facing political groupings today. There is simply no other choice is there?

Do you *want* to go in the sandpit with Gumbert, RW and Cliffy?


sorry about the kiddy insults

but no-one has actually explained to my satisfaction what other choice there is. Are we an open organisation? YES , do you have to pass an exam or pass a probationary period before you are allowed to join? NO

and you call us elitists and vanguardists!! wtf

what is your suggestion, we vet people (how?)
 
danno_at_work said:
sorry about the kiddy insults

but no-one has actually explained to my satisfaction what other choice there is. Are we an open organisation? YES , do you have to pass an exam or pass a probationary period before you are allowed to join? NO

and you call us elitists and vanguardists!! wtf

what is your suggestion, we vet people (how?)
There are plenty of sensible suggestions on the larger thread - ones that have been in operaration with apparent (obviously) sucess for some time - it would seem sensible for those other groups to at the very least asked about details of these procedures and how they work rather than setting up these false oppositions -and simply repeating that it's a matter for us alone - or that there is 'NO OTHER WAY, WE HAVE TO OPERATE LIKE THIS' - plenty of others didn't, and there is no need for you to either - nor to try and construct a political argument that turns a failing into a success.

You know i don't like the SWP, i don't want your members put at risk though. Please, take some advice on this...
 
butchersapron said:
There are plenty of sensible suggestions on the larger thread - ones that have been in operaration with apparent (obviously) sucess for some time - it would seem sensible for those other groups to at the very least asked about details of these procedures and how they work rather than setting up these false oppositions -and simply repeating that it's a matter for us alone - or that there is 'NO WAY OUT HAVE TO OPERATE LIKE THIS' - plenty of other didn't, and there is no need fot you to - nor to try and construct a poltical argument that turns a failing into a success.

You know i don't like the SWP, i don't want your members put at risk though. Please, take some advice on this...

bollocks
the MOST sensible i read was dont recruit students. cos they move round!!!!

WE ARE AN OPEN ORGANISATION
 
danno you're pathetic, typical swappie

don't ever claim to be a revolutionary socialist while you sit around defending the SWP's crappiness on this issue.
the complaceny and uselessness of your group may have put homes and lives in danger due to this, and you accuse me of trying to score points?
get a grip
 
butchersapron said:
No - it's full of shit that you lot are playing with.


i not quite keeping up with your edits

chucky
what is the alternative to being open ?
who benefits from being clandestine?

i know its not the class
 
danno_at_work said:
i not quite keeping up with your edits

chucky
what is the alternative to being open ?
who benefits from being clandestine?

i know its not the class
Didn't edit to change anything other than to sort out the CAPITALS - don't be tricky...or dishonest - you help me by quting the original. I'm not happy at what you're suggesting either...not by a long way.
 
danno_at_work said:
chucky
what is the alternative to being open ?
who benefits from being clandestine?


if you're talking to me, when the hell did i mention either open or clandestine tactics?

the alternative to being open is making sure new members aren't nazis, if you ask me.
who benefits from being clandestine? nobody, but that isn't the alternative...

do you know anything at all dan, or are you just spouting pseudo-trot rubbish?
 
Seeing that neither of these two have anything to do with the SWP and have had made their opinion clear I'd give up posting on this thread danno ;)
 
Flavour said:
if you're talking to me, when the hell did i mention either open or clandestine tactics?

the alternative to being open is making sure new members aren't nazis, if you ask me.
who benefits from being clandestine? nobody, but that isn't the alternative...

do you know anything at all dan, or are you just spouting pseudo-trot rubbish?

how do you make sure anybody is who they say they are ?

how do You think the swp should vet members

or are you just being a smartarse for the sake of it?
 
butchersapron said:
Didn't edit to change anything other than to sort out the CAPITALS - don't be tricky...or dishonest - you help me by quting the original. I'm not happy at what you're suggesting either...not by a long way.

and it wasn't just capitals but i'm not in the habit of presuming people on the left (or whatever direction you think you are) are lying,

i'm not going to start saving posts cos you cant fill in the reason for editing
 
silentNate said:
Seeing that neither of these two have anything to do with the SWP and have had made their opinion clear I'd give up posting on this thread danno ;)
What an utterly selfish, self centered and arrogant posting. Good to see you keeping up your usual standards nate. You're not SWP either so shut you your fucking mouth as well.

Nate, still trying to get in on others left-overs 'cos you can't do a damn thing yourself.
 
butchersapron said:
What an utterly selfish, self centered and arrogant posting. Good to see you keeping up your usual standards nate. You're not SWP either so shut you your fucking mouth as well.

Nate, still trying to get in on others left-overs 'cos you can't do a damn thing yourself.

*butch and slient get sent in from sandpit for not playing nicely*
 
danno_at_work said:
and it wasn't just capitals but i'm not in the habit of presuming people on the left (or whatever direction you think you are) are lying,

i'm not going to start saving posts cos you cant fill in the reason for editing
I changed nothing other than the order of words in the capitals (and 'fot to 'for') Remember that your own post shows the original undedited post. You better take back that sugesstion that i changed anything else, esp substantive content back right fucking now.

Or very quickly grow the balls to call me a liar.
 
butchersapron said:
I changed nothing other than the order of words in the capitals (and 'fot to 'for') Remember that your own post shows the original undedited post. You better take back that sugesstion that i changed anything else, esp substantive content back right fucking now.

nothing substantive but a bit off putting
 
Pilgrim said:
...I was vetted before I joined the Greens...
Just out of interest, what did this consist of? The reason I ask is that for about four years I helped run the Lambeth and Southwark Green Party, and all I can remember is asking someone to fill in and sign a form with their real name and address (ie not just a nickname/alias, which some people wanted to use) that basically said they supported the aims and objectives of the GP and were not a member of any other political party. This was sent off to national office along with their annual subscription.

I don't know how they would go about cheking that this was a bona fida and real life person living at that address - half of Lambeth don't seem to appear on the electoral role, which would stop someone from voting or standing for election, but wouldn't be grounds for refusing GP membership. I don't think people were ever required to produce any kind of actual ID bor do I know if there was any actual way of checking if they were members of any other political party. I think the whole thing was there in case someone was subsequently uncovered as either not being who they said they were, or belonging to another party, and so would be grounds for beiong thrown out of the GP. I don't think the actual sign-up process involved any kind of "vetting" in itself.

As it happens, I was a bit suspicious of several people who either joined, tried to join but gave slightly wierd information (nicknames and/or wierd addresses), who seemed to come out of nowhere, had very convoluted or extremely vague stories about where they were from and what they did and who turned up wanting to get very involved with stuff.

However, at the end of the day we just had to trust people a bit, see how they behaved and try and keep a tight grip on access to computer databases and other members details. As long as sokeone doesn't turn up and start walking off with information or start screwing lots of stuff up for everyone then it is a bit paranoid to suspect people. I did however realise that it would be very easy for a Conservative, Lib Dem, Labour or whatever/whomever sympathiser to volunteer/join and tell their mates exactly what we were discussing in all out meetings etc. This also applies to all the E-testing, demos, Cannabis campaigning, squat parties, eco-protests and everything else we got up to over the same period.

I'd love to know how any organisation or group is meant to go about "vetting" people, other than using instincts/vibe and talking to them and hanging out with them enough to try and get a feeling for what/who they are. It is also a good idea to not just leave computers set up without passwords, not elect brand new people to handle private info/lists and not to leave them lying around next to the photocopier etc. But beyond this what can you do?
 
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