An open question to all SWP members on u75

[cockneyrebel]

If they have been come back on I've found the answers utterly unconvincing or missed them (I don't think they have all been come back on, like my Q about if the FOD had taken up arms against the CNT leadership who were traitors - which I think needed to be done, because arms also needed to be taken up against the stalinists who they'd aligned themselves with). Any chance of a summary in case I've missed something?

 

[Pickman's model]

Any chance of a summary in case I've missed something?

no, the thread's not going to disappear in the next half hour.

perhaps it's not something you've missed, and rather something yr missing?

 

[cockneyrebel]

Perhaps, but I can't see where it's been well answered and as I'm being replied to by about six people a summary would be helpful as I'm at work....

Do people not think that a coup against the CNT leadership was necessary? That this could happen again?

 

[butchersapron]

You need a summary of a debate in which you've been one of the the central participants?

We did try to warn you lads before it started....

 

[cockneyrebel]

Well considering I've been replied to by around six people, and I have to look very quickly as I'm at work, I dont think this is oh so terrible.....

the horror, the horror!

(As said it’s ashame aw go on couldn’t have contributed more or Nigel or bolshiebhoy……perhaps they think it’s pointless….)

 

[butchersapron]

On the contrary i think it serves to highlight just how serious you have been in attempting to understand and respond to the detailed posts of others - and that is not at all.

 

[Ray]

How is me saying I think "re-directing" resources (is this not another way of saying sanctions? If not what's the difference?) is co-ercive. I think it is, why don't you?

The problem is that Gurrier already answered this, and said he didn't think it was coercive. So you were trying to fabricate a difference between us, when we had both quite clearly said that there was no such difference. Its completely dishonest.

Its also incredibly stupid, given that we can all just scroll up to view the earlier posts.

Its also amazingly ... brazen to describe the action I suggested as coercion, when earlier in the thread you'd been defending execution and torture (and when you suggest the correct response to this situation would be to physically take over the factory).

You just don't have a defensible, principled position at all, do you?

 

[Pickman's model]

if he does it's not on this thread.

 

[cockneyrebel]

I openly admit my replies have been rushed and not as serious as I’d like. Firstly I don’t think it’s important enough as it’s U75 and a handful of anarchists who represent absolutely no-one outside 70 or so people and secondly I’m at work and have very limited time…..Again….

The horror, the horror!

Now any chance of a summary? What do people think about the FOD/CNT point?

 

[Ray]

a handful of anarchists who represent absolutely no-one outside 70 or so people QUOTE]

How big is Workers Power anyway?

 

[butchersapron]

Why do you keep repeating "The horror, the horror!" CR?

 

[Pickman's model]

I openly admit my replies have been rushed and not as serious as I’d like. Firstly I don’t think it’s important enough as it’s U75 and a handful of anarchists who represent absolutely no-one outside 70 or so people

what arsery! do you think that there are only seventy anarchists in the uk, or that any anarchists claim to represent anyone save themselves?

 

[Pickman's model]

Why do you keep repeating "The horror, the horror!" CR?

 

[kropotkin]

So, in the debate and discussion about whether Stalinism was a continuation of Leninism, your response has been to ignore the continuities shown, the anti-democratic and repressive measures taken, and attack anarchism.
You then also failed to do that effectively, and shrug and say that it doesn't matter as there aren't many anarchists.

Does this debate not make you feel a little ashamed of yourself?

 

[cockneyrebel]

No Ray it’s not dishonest. I thought anyone would think that quasi sanctions were coercive. If you don’t we will have to agree to disagree. I think that sanctions are clearly coercive. It wasn’t an attempt to fabricate anything! Again you’re being so over the top it’s ridiculous.

And then there is the strawman of executions and torture. As said would you risk bombing places, because if you would be prepared to use and airforce it would mean that children would be very likely to die. It’s just scenarios you take totally out of context.

And as for taking over a factory if you desperately needed arms, I think it’s utterly fair enough. Like I think it would be fair enough if the FOD, if they had the strength, had taken up arms against the CNT leaders who were traitors.

And then the sarcy snidey comments. Nope I’ve got no principles at all, that’s right…..how petty can you get?

PS WP is probably slightly bigger than the AF, but we're not the biggest revolutionary socialist organisation! Pickmans I think the biggest anarchist organisation in the UK has got about 70 members…..

 

[Pickman's model]

Pickmans I think the biggest anarchist organisation in the UK has got about 70 members…..

yeh. but i'm not in the af! there are more anarchists than the af lot, who, incidentally, hold bakunin in at least as high regard as they do kropotkin.

 

[cockneyrebel]

Yet more hysteria from kropotkin. Do I feel ashamed about a debate on U75….really you’ve gotta get out more…..I haven't ignored what's been said I just won't accept what you're saying.....

I think the anarchist response to their measures have been utterly weak. Does that make you ashamed? Can you bear to go out and show your face?

 

[cockneyrebel]

yeh. but i'm not in the af! there are more anarchists than the af lot, who, incidentally, hold bakunin in at least as high regard as they do kropotkin.

Not that many more class anarchists......

 

[kropotkin]

If I was to lie in a public place where everyone can see, get caught on it and still pretend I hadn't done it

yes, i would feel ashamed.

But that is because i am not intellectually dishonest.

 

[kropotkin]

Not that many more class anarchists......

And why do you say "class anarchists" constantly? You do know that we call ourselves "class-struggle" anarchists, don't you? So where do you get this new label from?

Is it meant to irritate people?

 

[Ray]

No Ray it’s not dishonest. I thought anyone would think that quasi sanctions were coercive. If you don’t we will have to agree to disagree. I think that sanctions are clearly coercive. It wasn’t an attempt to fabricate anything! Again you’re being so over the top it’s ridiculous.

I said that I didn't think the measures were coercive.
Gurrier said that he didn't think the measures were coercive (and explained why)
In your reply to Gurrier's post, you said

But Ray was saying that the other federations should implement measures to coerce them into following what the delegate body said. Do you agree with this? Or is taking away resources from someone not co-ersive? Are economic blocades or refusing to trade with people not co-ersive?

Both Gurrier and I had just said that we didn't think those measures were coercive. We had also both just said that our positions were basically identical. For you to suggest, in the very next post, that I was suggesting coercive measures - when you knew that neither Gurrier or I agreed with that characterisation - was dishonest. For you to ask if Gurrier agreed with the measures I suggested WHEN HE HAD JUST FINISHED EXPLAINING THAT HE DID was dishonest, because it was just an excuse to suggest that we were talking about coercion.

No honest debater could have replied to Gurrier as you did.

PS WP is probably slightly bigger than the AF, but we're not the biggest revolutionary socialist organisation! QUOTE]

Wow, you're really in a position to look down on the tiny anarchist organisations, aren't you?

 

[cockneyrebel]

class anarchists, class struggle, whatever, do you pick up on anything, no matter how trivial?

Wow, you're really in a position to look down on the tiny anarchist organisations, aren't you?

If WP was the biggest revolutionary socialist organisation I'd be depressed, but the tiny and irrelevant state of revolutionaries is depressing anyway to be honest......

And Ray why has everything got to be so dramatic. I'm responded to so many posts, so quickly that I might not of even seen or remember stuff. Believe me it's not an attempt to trick or be dishonest. Get over yourself. The same goes for Prince Kropotkin, I'm not lying, you're just been totally over dramatic....it's U75, and utterly meaningless, I wouldn't bother lying.....

As said I think quasi sanctions are coercive, why don't you?

 

[Pickman's model]

what's a quasi sanction?

 

[Ray]

I'm responded to so many posts, so quickly that I might not of even seen or remember stuff.

This would be a little more believable if the whole point of Gurrier's post, the post you were replying to, was not to say that he agreed with the positions other anarchists (including me specifically) had proposed, and didn't think refusing to send raw materials to a factory was coercion.

Besides, if your attention span is actually that short its really not worth debating anything with you, is it?

 

[Ray]

what's a quasi sanction?

Its where a collective stops supplying raw material to a factory that won't build what the collective wants it to build. This is apparently coercive, and essentially the same thing as sending in the army to take over the factory.

I know, I know, it doesn't make any sense to me either.

 

[kropotkin]

CR asked "As said I think quasi sanctions are coercive, why don't you?"

Well, I thought that Gurrier has already addressed this perfectly well by saying that

A basic principle of anarchism is that workers should have a say in how their work is used. There is nothing that binds me to send the output of my work to a particular factory. If I feel that the output would be better employed elsewhere, I can of course decide to send it there. The bizzarely and unrealistically egotistical workers of the fridge factory are still free to find other suppliers, join other federations or establish their own supply chains. To label the practice of deciding not to send your output to a rogue factory that does not respect collective agreements as 'coercion' is just too silly to take seriously and it reveals an alarming incapacity to understand basic libertarian socialist principles on your part.

Do you disagree that "workers should have a say in how their work is used"?

 

[Pickman's model]

this seems to envisage the factory not being a part of the collective?

 

[cockneyrebel]

Be abusive if you like Ray, I’ve told you the conditions I’m posting in and have to be very very rushed. But I was at no point being dishonest, as said I wouldn’t bother on U75 even if I did wanna be that way.

To be honest I find the whole tone of the way these kinda debates are conducted a bit of a downer. It’s like trotskyists are the enemy. I want to read a lot more about stuff from all ideologies and wish I had more time, but to think this kinda debate is some kind of trickery is ridiculous. What really depresses me is how irrelevant revolutionary ideas are at the moment and even then people are petty and insulting towards each other.

I don’t look at anarchists as the enemy and am willing to listen, although U75 is probably one of the worst places to do it. I admit I doubt I’ll ever be convinced of the ideas because everything I’ve seen seems so utopian, and sadly even if you convinced me revolutionary socialism was wrong I probably would give up as I’d think I was wasting my time with anarchism.

Anyway this has all got really petty, and I apologise if I’ve contributed to it……I dunno why I come on here at work, all I’ll do is get myself the sack!

 

[cockneyrebel]

This is apparently coercive, and essentially the same thing as sending in the army to take over the factory.

Where did I say this, this IS an example of dishonest debating…..

As for gurriers post, I thought we were talking about the majority of federations putting sanctions on the federation who wouldn’t follow the line. As said if you don’t think this is an attempt to coerce fair enough. I do, especially if that factory badly needed the goods that were being denied them by the other federations. On a wider scale I think we’d all agree that the sanctions put on Iraq, for example, were coercive….….we’ll have to agree to disagree….

Do people think the FOD would have been within their rights, if they had the strength, to have an armed uprising against the CNT leadership?

 

[Ray]

this seems to envisage the factory not being a part of the collective?

The idea is that the factory is essentially removing itself from the collective by refusing to be bound by the decisions the collective makes. So the rest of the collective lets them build what they like, but doesn't provide material support. Which is not how I spell 'coercion'.