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An open question to all SWP members on u75

aw go on said:
How would anarchists deal with soviets that elected the Mensheviks and turned against soviet power and against the revolution? Just stand by and let the Mensheviks overthrow it?

how would you solve the grain crisis?

The poor old mensheviks weren't in the business of overthrowing anyone, were they? And I'd say they were right when they said that socialism couldn't be built in Russia, given its backward condition.

As for the grain crisis, hasn't this one been answered above?
 
How has the grain question been answered?! Vague statements and a link to Prince Kropotkin, and something the prince wrote 6 years before it even happened. Well that solves that one then! Unfortunately for the anarchoids on here aw go on is very knowledgable, and the the ridiculous stereotypes of "trots" who no nothing about anarchism just doesn't hold true, and then the even more stupid stereotype of "students".....should I retalitate by saying anarchoids are all private school middle class squatters? You heap on the abuse and then complain about others tone......And as aw go on says have you even read any Trotsky or Lenin?

Would be interested to hear what Nigel has to say, ashame he's not in the debate.

Last thing before I go out. Ray brought up an interesting point when he agreed that a centralisation of power would be necessary and that federations couldn't always be autonomous. Two questions.

1) Do other anarchists on here agree with this, I haven't heard many who do.

2) If people are in agreement do they think that in a situation of war and counter revolution these leading bodies would have to be able to make quite wide ranging decisions as quick collective decisions will be vital?
 
Centralisation of power.

CockneyRebel has refered several times to the centralisation of power apparently advocated or at least accepted by anarchists, in particular by the friends of Durrutti. As with his reference to the juntas, this is really just an example of plucking a couple of phrases out of complicated writings and repeating them over and over. There is really no attempt to look at the ideas behind the phrases and it once again smacks of trotskyist mis-education on anarchism where the whole theory is reduced to a couple of out-of-context quotes with inaccurate meanings added.

Anyway, anarchists naturally have no problem with people voluntarily co-operating towards collective goals and collectivising certain functions when it seems that this would lead to greater efficiencies. Note there are a few key words here: "voluntarily" and "co-operating". This has nothing in common with the bolshevik practice of imposing centralised decision making on recalcitrant people by force.

You see there are many concrete practices which can hide behind Cockney's simplistic refrain about centralisation. The version presented by these trots, of autonomous federations each doing their own thing, only makes sense if you think that people are so stupid that they will never see the use in co-operating with each other on a voluntary basis in pursuit of collective goals. It is not an accurate depiction of anarchist theory (anarchism is organisation, organisation and more organisation - Malatesta) nor does it bear any resemblance to what actually happened whenever these ideas had a chance to be put into practice - Spain saw the greatest flowering of working class self-organisation in immensely complex intertwined co-operative bodies that the world has ever seen.

Now, I happen to know quite a bit about the actual proposals of the Friends of Durruti for the organisation of the military effort against Franco in Spain. I doubt whether any of our trots here know much more than the seven or eight words that they keep repeating as if that was an excuse for knowledge.

Firstly, a condition of membership of the FoD was membership of the CNT. They never ceased to express loyalty to the organisation, so the suggestion that they would have suppressed it is ludicrous.

Secondly, they were proposing that the CNT should attempt to enter into a voluntary agreement with the UGT and other working class organisations in order to render the prosecution of the war more efficent. They were not proposing that anybody force anything upon anybody. They were not even proposing that the CNT should impose this proposal unilaterally, even though the CNT was probably the most democratic mass organisation that the world has ever seen. They were proposing that the CNT should advocate a voluntary association with other working class organisations which any of them would be free to join or leave if they saw fit.

Thirdly, their proposal was for a council, elected from the working class organisations, whose membership would be subject to democratic mandates and instant recall by their members and which would be formed proportionately from the constituent bodies, none of which would have a majority - despite the fact that the CNT was by far the strongest.

Fourthly, their proposal was for a council which would have a strictly limited mandate and would have precisely no power to dictate on any matters which the constituent bodies had not voluntarily delegated it to do so.

Fifthly, they presented a sophisticated model for preventing the emergence of a professional class of managers in the proposed army. Each trained military officer would share their command with a political officer elected directly from the soldiers in their unit, an officer who could overrule the military officer and who was subject to immediate recall and mandate. They explicitly called for the removal of all petty privileges and special powers for these officers.

Sixthly, their call for the disbandment of counter-revolutionary parties was directed at the main Leninist organisation, the PSUC, which was being used to organise the internal crushing of the revolution and for the regroupment of the bourgeois forces in Spain, based upon their monopoly over arms supplies. This call obviously did not extend to other political forces such as the UGT or the POUM, since despite their dislike for the POUM's politics, they actually fought side by side in defence of them in the streets in the Barcelona maydays and they were proposing a voluntary alliance with the UGT. They only proposed the disbandment of the political parties which were physically organising attacks on the working class organisations.

Now, I realise that you guys are pretty slow on the uptake (taylorists 100 years too late!), but I really don't see how you can confuse these proposals with anything resembling the Bolshevik position or practice. I also realise that you have only a comic-book understanding of anarchism, so I'll elaborate a little on the ideas.

In describing the anarchist position, I'll try to apply it to the question of food supply to the cities in russia. Now, I realise that by doing this I'm sort of falling for the cheap trick of the trots and allowing them to take the thread off the topic. They can't defend the bolsheviks and their record or their fixation with centralisation so they resort to attacking another set of ideas instead. I really don't see how the question of whether the bolshevik program lead inexorably to a dictatorship can rest on whether the anarchists had a specific solution to the problem of food distribution in Russia in 1917. As it happens they did - as I have demonstrated - a solution that moreover worked exceedingly well in practice when it had an opportunity to be put into practice.

However, I will take the bait and explain to our more dim-witted cultees as to exactly what this solution was and how it could have worked in Russia. If they actually were interested in ideas they would probably bother to familiarise themselves with the contents of the book referred to, rather than just slagging it off from a position of woeful ignorance. Perhaps, they can learn something from somebody who actually attempts to defend their ideas, I know, I'm a dreamer...

Anyway, the essence of Kropotkin's work is that a revolution in early 20th century europe would immediately find itself in a very difficult position. The revolution would inevitably start in the proletarianised cities and would not spread to the rural areas immediately. Kropotkin, with considerable foresight, pointed out that this would be absolutely crucial for the revolution. If the cities could not feed themselves the revolution would die in a short space of time. The title of the book refers to the key immediate task of the revolution, the conquest of bread in a situation where the rural population who produced the food would be unwilling to just give it to the revolutionary cities.

Now the question that Kropotkin posed was not "how can the anarchists solve this", as the trots put it - revealing their trademark managerial arrogant mindsets. It was, "how can the working class solve this". As an anarchist he was interested in whether there was a solution to this problem which did not contradict any of the anarchist principles of voluntary association and lack of coercion.

Now, I'm not going to go into the fine details of his proposed solution, but I will give you a rough idea of what it would have entailed in the Russian situation. The urban soviets would come together, on as general a level as possible, whether this be the factory or the entire country, and produce a list of the surpluses that they could produce. They would form delegations and send these to the rural regions where they would address the peasant organisations and say to them "tell us what you need, we have factories, teachers, trains, machinery, engineers and all of the products of modern science. We will send whatever you need. In return we beg that you produce as much food as possible and send it to the cities as we are hungry. The question of how you produce the food and how you distribute the goods is up to you. We promise to send you whatever we can spare if you do the same".

Now this may sound utopian to the trots - although this is communism - but this is essentially what happened in Spain and it worked tremendously well. Not only did they see massive increases in rural productivity of food, they also saw the introduction of new machinery all over rural areas like tractors and threshers, they acheived all of this during a war when significant numbers of people were sent to the front and when a huge amount of industry was diverted towards the war effort. If anybody can find a source that contradicts these claims, I'd be very suprised.

In contrast to this, a theory that is both principled and shown to have worked in practice, what do the trots have to offer? A war of terror against the peasantry, huge decreases in production, famines and a state that quickly became a massive prison camp. And they have the bare-faced cheek to sneer at us. :mad:

Sure, you could say that this was not applied in Russia, but the russian working class made many efforts to do so and were thwarted repeatedly by the bolsheviks with their control detachments and their militarisation of labour and their obession with maintaining control. And the anarchists? Well we don't know what the anarchists were saying, we can guess that they were actively engaged in their soviets arguing that this was the way forward, as we know that Kropotkin's writings were immensely well known in Russia. However we can only guess, as their voices weren't too loud from behind the prison bars and their writings were almost all in ashes by 1921, burned by the monstrous dictatorship that you trots can somehow still defend.
 
aw go on said:
How would anarchists deal with soviets that elected the Mensheviks and turned against soviet power and against the revolution? Just stand by and let the Mensheviks overthrow it?
if soviets decided to elect mensheviks, that's the soviets' prerogative. what would you do, bayonets to the fore and up the jaxi till they elected someone else? and do you mean the soviets turned against the revolution, or the mensheviks did, and how do you define "against the revolution"?

how would you solve the grain crisis?
what grain crisis? i thought that there was a grain mountain! there's not a lot you can do about the unseasonable rain there's been recently, so the arable farmers will have to grin and bear it, but i don't think that the poor harvest we're going to see this year will lead to a "crisis".
 
oh - under what terms were these mensheviks of which you speak elected? were they instantly recallable or were they elected for some specific term?
 
Prince Kropotkins messenger strides forward again to proclaim everyone elses ignorance and mid-education. As for juntas, I haven’t even brought it up! As for what the FOD said, I’ve read the whole book where I got the quote from but the fact remains that they called for central common command. If this doesn’t involve a centralisation of power, on some level or another, what does?

In any case my Qs were about Rays statements!

Anyway, anarchists naturally have no problem with people voluntarily co-operating towards collective goals and collectivising certain functions when it seems that this would lead to greater efficiencies. Note there are a few key words here: "voluntarily" and "co-operating". This has nothing in common with the bolshevik practice of imposing centralised decision making on recalcitrant people by force.

But that’s not what Ray said, was it? He said that federations could be told what to do against their wished. He gave the example of “fridges and guns”. So do you disagree with Ray, because if you do then obviously that sets the same questions again.

How can quick collective decisions be made? Do you just rely on everyone agreeing all the time?

You see there are many concrete practices which can hide behind Cockney's simplistic refrain about centralisation. The version presented by these trots, of autonomous federations each doing their own thing, only makes sense if you think that people are so stupid that they will never see the use in co-operating with each other on a voluntary basis in pursuit of collective goals

No this is your stereotype of what you think I’m saying. I didn’t say federations couldn’t be co-operative, but what happens when they’re not. What happens if a minority block the will of the majority and that will have a severe impact on the revolution. Can then everyone do as they please regardless?

Now, I happen to know quite a bit about the actual proposals of the Friends of Durruti for the organisation of the military effort against Franco in Spain. I doubt whether any of our trots here know much more than the seven or eight words that they keep repeating as if that was an excuse for knowledge.

Nope I’ve read a lot more than “seven or eight words” oh arrogant one.

Firstly, a condition of membership of the FoD was membership of the CNT. They never ceased to express loyalty to the organisation, so the suggestion that they would have suppressed it is ludicrous.

I said it followed from their logic. Whether they would have done it or not is another matter. They said parties that had turned against the working class should be disbanded. As they called the CNT leadership traitors would the leaders not have come under this bracket?

Would the Mensheviks not have come under this bracket?

even though the CNT was probably the most democratic mass organisation that the world has ever seen.

Were their leadership still part of this democracy when they were part of the Stalinist/capitalist government? Did they have mass anarchist backing for this then?

Sixthly, their call for the disbandment of counter-revolutionary parties was directed at the main Leninist organisation, the PSUC, which was being used to organise the internal crushing of the revolution and for the regroupment of the bourgeois forces in Spain, based upon their monopoly over arms supplies.

So Stalinists would be shut down. At least you’ve said it, others above tried to duck this Q.

However, I will take the bait and explain to our more dim-witted cultees as to exactly what this solution was and how it could have worked in Russia.

Hahahaha…..

Then again you give no answer to the grain question, just waffle that had no relation to reality. The sources I gave above showed that not only was there a grain crisis but a production crisis. This happened almost immediately.

So what would they have bartered with?

You still haven’t said what you’d do if you couldn’t barter and the peasants refused to give the grain to the cities. Would you leave it with them or take it?

Well we don't know what the anarchists were saying, we can guess that they were actively engaged in their soviets arguing that this was the way forward, as we know that Kropotkin's writings were immensely well known in Russia. However we can only guess, as their voices weren't too loud from behind the prison bars and their writings were almost all in ashes by 1921, burned by the monstrous dictatorship that you trots can somehow still defend.

Very poetic, but you probably also don’t know because the anarchists in Russia had absolutely fuck all influence…..or are you gonna tell me what 99.9% of people think again despite the biggest anarcho organisation is the UK having 70 members?
 
cockneyrebel said:
Your posts have just degenerated into sarcy comments and ridiculous scenarios.

I posted quite a long piece on the problem with cosequentialism in revolutionary situations. Other people saw it, and responded, but you didn't. Since you couldn't address the problem in the abstract, I suggested some concrete examples. Did I get sarcy? Yes. But considering you were incapable of ruling out torture and the shooting of deserters, on the basis that someone might tell you that they were necessary for the defence of the revolution, I think you're lucky I stopped at sarcy.

Of course, this is just the latest question you've chosen to ignore. You've also ignored the question about what constitutes counter-revolutionary activity, because you'd then have to justify the banning of opposition parties and overturning of soviet elections. Things that you started by denying happened, and then quietly stopped mentioning.

In fact, you've stopped trying to defend the Bolshevik record on anything really. Instead of arguing why their model is a good one, and why the things they did in Russia were the right things to do, you've decided that the only possible response is to question anarchism. Shows a lot of confidence in your ideology, that does.

cockneyrebel said:
Joe Black you still haven’t answered the question on grain. The source I gave above stated that Moscow was facing starvation in early 1918 and the peasants were refusing to give over their grain to help out. In these circumstances there seems a simple choice. You either take it or you don’t. What would anarchists do? So far you seem to just provide vague statements…..

This has been answered in plenty of detail by other posters, so I'll only add that Joe's first post on this subject actually did implicitly answer this question, by pointing out that the Bolsheviks refused to allow soviets and villages to arrange things for themselves. But again, it suited you to demand answers from anarchists rather than defend Bolshevik actions.

cockneyrebel said:
As said it’s good to see that it’s been accepted that centralisation of power is needed and everyone can’t just be autonomous (kinda like democratic centralism on a loser scale by the sounds of it). Would you agree that in a revolutionary situation where production and military decisions have to made very quickly and in a co-ordinated way that the central bodies, during this time, would have to have fairly wide spread powers…..

Oh, yes. I completely agree that central bodies must have the power to set up secret police forces to execute oppositionists, close down parties, overturn soviet elections, impose one-man management, and shoot deserters. I only insist that before doing any of these things they must swear that they are necessary for the defence of the revolution. That would make it all right.

That is the answer you want, right?

Because I keep saying, and everyone else keeps saying, that any groups of delegates would have to operate under strict mandates, with tightly bounded powers. I would have thought that the criticisms people have made of Bolshevik policy would give you a pretty good idea of what those limits must be. Do you really think that anyone agrees that this is "kinda like democratic centralism on a looser scale"? Do you honestly think that the anarchists here are going to nod their heads and say "Yes, that's it! Oh how can we have been so blind as not to recognise that we are realy democratic centralists at heart?"
 
cockneyrebel said:
But that’s not what Ray said, was it? He said that federations could be told what to do against their wished. He gave the example of “fridges and guns”. So do you disagree with Ray, because if you do then obviously that sets the same questions again.

Quote the whole paragraph. I said "I think the simplest way of answering it is to say that I think the decisions made by the delegates should be binding, but there must be limits on how they are enforced. If a particular factory would rather make frdges than guns the delegate council can decide that no, they have to make guns. But they can't appoint a manager, order troops in, or ship everyone off to the gulag to enforce their will."

cockneyrebel said:
Nope I’ve read a lot more than “seven or eight words” oh arrogant one...I said it followed from their logic.

That's the trouble with quoting a single sentence out of context. But you keep doing it, even after its pointed out that your interpretation couldn't possibly be accurate. And now you're trying to do it again with my sentence.

My regard for your intellectual honesty is reaching new heights here...
 
Wicked posts Ray and Gurrier.

Trots, as has been pointed out you asre ignoring questions, shifting goalposts and refusing to defend the actions that this thread is focussing on, instead preferring (as Gurrier has noted) to attack anarchism. Desperation....
 
Thansk to Ray for pointing out where I had already answered the grain question. I'm not too convinced by this method of not seeing the answer and simply repeating the question but I'lll add one detail in response to

cockneyrebel said:
So what would they have bartered with?

Perhaps they could have used some of Lenins Rolls Royces? :D

People have referenced Spain as an example of the anarchist procedure working but in fact it also happened on a smaller scale in Russia. The Makhnovists sent grain (and a little coal) to Moscow in early 1918 and to Petrograd on 1919. This was exchanged for textiles and the initiative in both cases came from the Hulyai Pole peasants. I don't have figures for 1918 but the 1919 quantity for 1,500 tons of grain. So not only did an alternative exist in theory but it also existed in practise.

Trotsky thanked them in 1921 when he declared "This gang from Gulyay Polye has dared to announce for June 15 a congress of Anarchist kulak delegates ... this congress is banned. I announce that anyone who takes part in it will be regarded as a traitor ... There can only be one penalty for these individuals: shooting"

The question on 'soviets that go bad' has already been answered but to repreat the obvious the decision on what to do in such cases can only be made by an assembly of soviet delegates, not by the central committee of one party which labelled everyone who disagreed with them, including their own members 'counter revolutionary' and in league with the whites (and later fascists). It's hilarous how happily the 'trotskyite fascists' use the same methods that they fell victim to themselves in the 1930's. Talk about slow learners!
 
Actually Ray I’m at work and trying to reply to five or six people on this thread. Quite hard, and to be honest I’ll have to stop or get the sack!

On consequentialism obviously you can’t predict the future, but you can make decisions on what is likely to happen, otherwise you’d never do anything!

And saying I haven’t ruled out this or that, grouchos post deals with this well as does Trotsky’s their morals and ours. If you would be prepared to let a mass murdering fascist go and risk them doing it again rather than shoot them fair enough!

because you'd then have to justify the banning of opposition parties and overturning of soviet elections. Things that you started by denying happened, and then quietly stopped mentioning.

Sorry can you point to where I denied any soviets were shut down? Nothing like a straw man though is there!

In fact, you've stopped trying to defend the Bolshevik record on anything really. Instead of arguing why their model is a good one, and why the things they did in Russia were the right things to do, you've decided that the only possible response is to question anarchism. Shows a lot of confidence in your ideology, that does.

No I haven’t and neither did aw go on, but I do think within this debate the viability of anarchism is an important one.

This has been answered in plenty of detail by other posters, so I'll only add that Joe's first post on this subject actually did implicitly answer this question, by pointing out that the Bolsheviks refused to allow soviets and villages to arrange things for themselves. But again, it suited you to demand answers from anarchists rather than defend Bolshevik actions.

More waffle. You can’t even answer what you would do if the peasants refused to give the grain to the cities!

Oh, yes. I completely agree that central bodies must have the power to set up secret police forces to execute oppositionists, close down parties, overturn soviet elections, impose one-man management, and shoot deserters. I only insist that before doing any of these things they must swear that they are necessary for the defence of the revolution. That would make it all right.

That is the answer you want, right?

Because I keep saying, and everyone else keeps saying, that any groups of delegates would have to operate under strict mandates, with tightly bounded powers. I would have thought that the criticisms people have made of Bolshevik policy would give you a pretty good idea of what those limits must be. Do you really think that anyone agrees that this is "kinda like democratic centralism on a looser scale"? Do you honestly think that the anarchists here are going to nod their heads and say "Yes, that's it! Oh how can we have been so blind as not to recognise that we are realy democratic centralists at heart?"

You like those strawmen don’t ya Ray. What you have said is that federations would have to accept the will of these delegates, even if it is within your boundaries. Gurrier seems to contradict you on this. Fair enough. But what I’m asking you is that in a situation of a revolutionary civil war, where decisions will need to be made very quickly, do you think that the delegates you speak of will have to make decisions on the military and production over quite a wide area? Are you capable of answering without being sarcy?

How am I taking you out of context? You are clearly saying that in some circumstances you can see that federations will have to do things against their will. Yes or no?

As for the grain question Joe you’re still ducking it. The links I gave show how much production was in crisis, therefore the ability to barter was very limited. In these circumstances, if bartering couldn’t work, what would you do?
 
derail.jpg
 
"You like those strawmen don?t ya Ray. What you have said is that federations would have to accept the will of these delegates, even if it is within your boundaries."

You do know what a delagate is don't you CR?
 
Are politics less valid if not many people ascribe to them? If so, when are you planning on joining the Labour Party

Not necessarily. Obviously it is important if you're ever gonna get anywhere though and anarchism has even more pitiful numbers than revolutionary socialists. But I do object to being lectured about what 99.9% of people think by someone who has ideas whose biggest organisation has 70 people.

You do know what a delagate is don't you CR?

You'd be better off asking Ray that. I am questioning him on whether he was saying, as he clearly seemed to be, that federations would have to do, in certain circumstances, what the collective delegate body told them to do i.e. federations aren't totally autonomous.....
 
cockneyrebel said:
You'd be better off asking Ray that. I am questioning him on whether he was saying, as he clearly seemed to be, that federations would have to do, in certain circumstances, what the collective delegate body told them to do i.e. federations aren't totally autonomous.....
No, you seem to have some trouble understanding that the actual process is first collective community deliberation of an issue, then the mandating of a delagate to go to a (con)federal meeting on the strict basis of the position reached by the community - not the other way round. Not a delagate attending conference, deciding what should be done with other delagates and then returning back to those communities and telling them what they've decided. You've really got to get past this representative democracy mindset.
 
No, you seem to have some trouble understanding that the actual process is first collective community deliberation of an issue, then the mandating of a delagate to go to a (con)federal meeting on the strict basis of the position reached by the community - not the other way round. Not a delagate attending conference, deciding what should be done with other delagates and then returning back to those communities and telling them what they've decided. You've really got to get past this representative democracy mindset.

Despite what people have said about being off topic this is what interests me about anarchism, and how I can’t see it working.

What if delegates to this confederal meeting are mandated to do different things? Will there then be a vote? Are federations that disagree with this vote bound by it? Ray seems to suggest, at least under certain circumstances, that they would be i.e. they’re not totally autonomous.

Also would you require this process every time a collective decision was made? How would collective decisions be made quickly? Or don’t you think this matters? Surely decisions around the war and around stuff like the how the airforce operates will have to be made all the time on an almost instant basis, and these are very important decisions and those who decide them will have a lot of power….

And if there are 10,000s of federations how big will this federal meeting be? Will you have 10,000s of delegates?!

You say that people aren’t answering this or that about the Bolsheviks, but anarchists seem unable to answer the simplest questions about how organisational stuff would work in reality….
 
The chances of me getting into this with you again are none - i was simply trying to clarify if you were using the term 'delagate' in the same way as Ray and others have been using it, as it seems to me from your past arguments and the ones you've posted here that you were not, and that you didn't quite grasp what it entailed. I still have no idea if you are/do though.

(I also don't see how you can claim to be well read and to have some understanding of the theory and historical practice of anarchism and ask that question again and again - even after it's been answered).
 
cockneyrebel said:
Despite what people have said about being off topic this is what interests me about anarchism, and how I can’t see it working.

What if delegates to this confederal meeting are mandated to do different things? Will there then be a vote? Are federations that disagree with this vote bound by it? Ray seems to suggest, at least under certain circumstances, that they would be i.e. they’re not totally autonomous.

Also would you require this process every time a collective decision was made? How would collective decisions be made quickly? Or don’t you think this matters? Surely decisions around the war and around stuff like the how the airforce operates will have to be made all the time on an almost instant basis, and these are very important decisions and those who decide them will have a lot of power….

And if there are 10,000s of federations how big will this federal meeting be? Will you have 10,000s of delegates?!

You say that people aren’t answering this or that about the Bolsheviks, but anarchists seem unable to answer the simplest questions about how organisational stuff would work in reality….
you make the mistake of assuming that all people are as contrary as you.
 
Contrary as me?

Have you been to any political meetings, you can’t even get 30 people in a room to agree. Anarchists, when they are as tiny as you could be without not existing can’t agree in meetings and you think 10,000s of delegates in a revolutionary situation will all agree?

Butchers you say you have answered these questions but you blatantly haven’t. Whenever this bit of the debate comes up you always say you’ve already answered it, but where are the answers? These are basic questions about organisational matter and no anarchists seems to be able to provide an answer…..anarchists on here say talk about not getting answers but can’t even answer these questions……

And we can’t even seem to know whether people on here agree with Ray that federations will be bound, under certain conditions, with the decisions of the delegate meeting. And if they refuse to agree, what happens then?

It’s just utter utopianism…..
 
I've got to say, as a non-anarchist, they're the ones who are winning this debate, cockney.

Whatever the flaws in their model, it's a damn sight more attractive than the 'we had to destroy the village in order to save it' attitude of you Leninists.
 
cockneyrebel said:
On consequentialism obviously you can’t predict the future, but you can make decisions on what is likely to happen, otherwise you’d never do anything!


But you have shown that you're willing to take someone else's word on what they think is likely to happen as justification for torture, shooting deserters, and fuck knows what else. (Except banning factions. You are quite clear that there are no circumstances under which you could possibly allow factions to be banned).

cockneyrebel said:
And saying I haven’t ruled out this or that, grouchos post deals with this well as does Trotsky’s their morals and ours. If you would be prepared to let a mass murdering fascist go and risk them doing it again rather than shoot them fair enough!

First, I didn't say that, at any point. Second, I _did_ say that were was a vast difference between shooting someone in the kneecaps when you have no other options, and having a policy of shooting deserters. A policy that you started by condemning, before changing your mind.

cockneyrebel said:
Sorry can you point to where I denied any soviets were shut down? Nothing like a straw man though is there!

When Joe Black pointed out that soviets had been shut down you said you didn't know about that, and asked for sources. When sources were presented, you said they weren't good enough. At no point have you agreed that soviets were shut down.

cockneyrebel said:
More waffle. You can’t even answer what you would do if the peasants refused to give the grain to the cities!

Jesus wept. Two posters have pointed out that in similar situations, peasants _did give grain to the cities_.



cockneyrebel said:
You like those strawmen don’t ya Ray. What you have said is that federations would have to accept the will of these delegates, even if it is within your boundaries. Gurrier seems to contradict you on this.

Not really. He said that cooperation must be voluntary. I said cooperation can't be coerced at gunpoint. I'm sure we'd come up with pretty much the same range of solutions to bridge the gap between 'complete independence' and 'slave labour'. Funny how you're more concerned with justifying slave labour, isn't it?

cockneyrebel said:
Fair enough. But what I’m asking you is that in a situation of a revolutionary civil war, where decisions will need to be made very quickly, do you think that the delegates you speak of will have to make decisions on the military and production over quite a wide area? Are you capable of answering without being sarcy?

I'll do better, I'll answer without suggesting the appointment of a central government with the power to shoot any opposition and enforce its decisions at gunpoint. Okay, so maybe I'll be a little bit sarky.

Yes, the delegate structure would have to cover quite a wide area. Military and production questions would have to be handled by delegates. Though there's no reason why the same set of delegates would have to make decisions on every question. And there's no reason why those delegates can't be mandated and recallable, and no reason why the delegates should have a secret police force.

cockneyrebel said:
How am I taking you out of context? You are clearly saying that in some circumstances you can see that federations will have to do things against their will. Yes or no?

You removed the context where I said that there were limits you could use to change the mind of the member federations. That context makes it clear that I don't actually disagree with Gurrier, so its clearly dishonest to pretend that I do.

cockneyrebel said:
As for the grain question Joe you’re still ducking it. The links I gave show how much production was in crisis, therefore the ability to barter was very limited. In these circumstances, if bartering couldn’t work, what would you do?

Not so limited that Lenin couldn't buy his Rolls Royces, or that party members couldn't receive privileged treatment. Nor were things so tight that the state couldn't afford to supply commisaars and control detachments. Nor were things so tight that the Bolsheviks couldn't make things worse, by encouraging under-production.
 
Whatever the flaws in their model, it's a damn sight more attractive than the 'we had to destroy the village in order to save it' attitude of you Leninists.

That’s if you take this ridiculous stereotype as what is being argued.

As for “whatever their flaws”, these are totally basic questions and they’re all over the place!
 
cockneyrebel said:
Butchers you say you have answered these questions but you blatantly haven?t. Whenever this bit of the debate comes up you always say you?ve already answered it, but where are the answers? These are basic questions about organisational matter and no anarchists seems to be able to provide an answer?..anarchists on here say talk about not getting answers but can?t even answer these questions??
This is just so untrue.That last time we ran through this (indicating that there were also other times) you asked the exact same question but with the railways in place of the airforce -and, on that thread you were given answers and directed to a mass of source material to support those answers- but you did just as you've done here - claim to be unaware of undisputed historical facts, ignored inconvenient points, refused to accept sources until they were physically in your hands etc. I think it's more of a case of you not getting the answers you want rather than no answers at all.
 
cockneyrebel said:
That’s if you take this ridiculous stereotype as what is being argued.

As for “whatever their flaws”, these are totally basic questions and they’re all over the place!

not as over the place as you.

And if anyone's been stereotyping your position, it's you.
 
butchersapron said:
This is just so untrue.That last time we ran through this (indicating that there were also other times) you asked the exact same question but with the railways in place of the airforce -and, on that thread you were given answers and directed to a mass of source material to support those answers- but you did just as you've done here - claim to be unaware of undisputed historical facts, ignored inconvenient points, refused to accept sources until they were physically in your hands etc. I think it's more of a case of you not getting the answers you want rather than no answers at all.
I totally endorse Butchers on this and CR's little game
 
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