Allegations of widespread sexual exploitation of Calais migrants by British volunteers

[Casually Red]

Casually Red - you've waxed lyrical about this subject for a week now, but I've still not idea what your actual point is supposed to be beyond taking the opportunity to stick the boot in to a bunch of do gooders.

What exactly is it that you think that those co-ordinating the (almost entirely volunteer run and funded) aid effort in Calais should be doing that they're not already doing?

And why do you think that this issue should take precedence for their / our attention right now rather than the rapidly approaching demolition of the entire camp and dispersal of the residents to fuck knows where?

I've waxed lyrical on fuck all, I've said very little on it . I've defended myself from all sorts of bollocks accusations this past week is all .

Secondly I haven't offered any solutions because I believe I've said on a number of occasions there's pretty much nothing can be done about it under the current circumstances . Although I do believe those who want to volunteer to work face to face with migrants should do so under the auspices of bodies that have proper training , background checks and regulations . Don't at all see why thats unreasonable .

And your final point is a straw man as well. I don't think it should take precedence and have never suggested so . That's bollocks . Just more having a go for daring to discuss this .

As the camps an unregulated shit hole and a magnet for all sorts of trafficking and exploitation I'm glad frankly it's being demolished . Its unfit for purpose . As I'm sure the residents of Calais are glad too. I'm less worried about where the residents are being dispersed to as opposed to what living conditions, protections and services will be available to them when they get there .

 

[Casually Red]

The first I heard of this story was with the Daily Mail headline "The British women 'going to the jungle for sex with migrants' - whistleblower claims some aid workers have 'multiple partners in a day'". If abuse is happening it should of course be stamped out, but doesn't help that the messenger of such news is a rag like the DM with a clear agenda.

Here is a follow up story with absolutely no agenda either. "British aid worker marrying her young Syrian refugee lover after they fell in love in the Calais Jungle DENIES claims that female volunteers are heading to the camp looking for sex".

Is this woman an abuser in your opinion, Casually Red?

Did I post a link to the Daily Mail ? Did I even once quote that article ? So why are you posting it ?

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Did I post a link to the Daily Mail ? Did I even once quote that article ? So why are you posting it ?

To demonstrate why people are so cynical of this story.

 

[Casually Red]

To demonstrate why people are so cynical of this story.

Well you failed to do that .

Aid distributors should not be fucking recipients of aid . Full stop. No matter how photogenic they are . I'm glad that woman is no longer a volunteer and also that her partner is no longer stuck in Calais . I'm happy they're happy . but aid distributors engaged in relationships with aid recipients is well inappropriate . It shouldn't be defended .

 

[DrRingDing]

These kinds of boundaries take a lot of work to manage well, training, reflective supervision, I'd say group supervision is helpful too. Even psychoanalysts with years of personal analysis, training supervision, ongoing supervision, the kind of supervision where sexual feelings are thought about, and the need to help vulnerable people is unpicked, sometimes even they fuck their patients. You seem to imagine that professionalism just happens without work.

Sexual arousal has shown to change peoples morals (i can dig out a paper or 2 if youre interested) but what we're (well i think we are) talking about is the acceptance of sexual relationships between people with vastly different power. The well heeled activist that could marry and provide for the other who has fuck all and is vulnerable in numerous ways. If the vulnerable party starts a sexual relationship then they give themselves a bit more of a chance to get by. It's the extreme power dynamic that doesn't really sit well with me but is totally ok in every activist circle ive seen it occur.

 

[trashpony]

It's the extreme power dynamic that doesn't really sit well with me but is totally ok in every activist circle ive seen it occur.

And yet every single 'activist' on this thread has said it isn't okay and it hasn't been thought as okay in their experience.

Sorry, 'ok'

 

[free spirit]

I've waxed lyrical on fuck all, I've said very little on it . I've defended myself from all sorts of bollocks accusations this past week is all .

78 posts on this thread.

Secondly I haven't offered any solutions because I believe I've said on a number of occasions there's pretty much nothing can be done about it under the current circumstances . Although I do believe those who want to volunteer to work face to face with migrants should do so under the auspices of bodies that have proper training , background checks and regulations . Don't at all see why thats unreasonable .

Because no organisation is in charge of the camp, what you believe is something that no organisation working there can possibly implement, so you're basically demanding the impossible.

And your final point is a straw man as well. I don't think it should take precedence and have never suggested so . That's bollocks . Just more having a go for daring to discuss this .

not a straw man. You've chosen to post this thread, and post 78 posts on this thread, rather than posting a thread about the demolition, or choosing to discuss the demolition on other existing threads.

So you've basically dictated that the big discussion here at this time is to be about this issue, and not the demolition.

As the camps an unregulated shit hole and a magnet for all sorts of trafficking and exploitation I'm glad frankly it's being demolished . Its unfit for purpose . As I'm sure the residents of Calais are glad too. I'm less worried about where the residents are being dispersed to as opposed to what living conditions, protections and services will be available to them when they get there .

If they were all really going to be well catered for, then that would be one thing. But last time the French attempted to make out that a ~2000 capacity container camp that was more of a prison camp than anything was sufficient provision to justify demolishing an area that was housing 5,000 people IIRC.

The demolition seems to be all about clearing the refugees out of Calais, what they want and their welfare are likely to be secondary considerations to that aim.

 

[Casually Red]

Sexual arousal has shown to change peoples morals (i can dig out a paper or 2 if youre interested) but what we're (well i think we are) talking about is the acceptance of sexual relationships between people with vastly different power. The well heeled activist that could marry and provide for the other who has fuck all and is vulnerable in numerous ways. If the vulnerable party starts a sexual relationship then they give themselves a bit more of a chance to get by. It's the extreme power dynamic that doesn't really sit well with me but is totally ok in every activist circle ive seen it occur.

It also has the real potential to cause totally unnecessary emotional discord and resentment among the aid recipients, particularly when rejection occurs . To cause additional chaos in an already chaotic environment . Aid agencies have a zero tolerance approach for very good reasons . Victorian morality and racism not being among them .

What doesn't sit right with me either is the apparent belief that being an "activist " cloaks you in a veil of worthiness that makes you immune from the scrutiny of lesser mortals . As well as rules of basic professionalism . That's a blank cheque for all sorts of skulduggery and fucking about . Some stuff I've seen posted here amounts to little more than " so what if they're fucking them ? At least they've given them shoes and stuff . What have you done ? " . Putting it rather bluntly but the essence is no different .

Anyway that holes days are numbered so this issue will be yesterdays news very shortly .The big issue at present should be what conditions these people are going to be settled in post dispersal . Who's looking after that ?

 

[DotCommunist]

3.8. You know your are nearing gold when he starts with the multiple paragraph screeds. One last push folks, we can get him to 4

 

[Casually Red]

78 posts on this thread.

Because no organisation is in charge of the camp, what you believe is something that no organisation working there can possibly implement, so you're basically demanding the impossible.


not a straw man. You've chosen to post this thread, and post 78 posts on this thread, rather than posting a thread about the demolition, or choosing to discuss the demolition on other existing threads.

So you've basically dictated that the big discussion here at this time is to be about this issue, and not the demolition.


If they were all really going to be well catered for, then that would be one thing. But last time the French attempted to make out that a ~2000 capacity container camp that was more of a prison camp than anything was sufficient provision to justify demolishing an area that was housing 5,000 people IIRC.

The demolition seems to be all about clearing the refugees out of Calais, what they want and their welfare are likely to be secondary considerations to that aim.

Yeah, 78 posts on this thread mostly defending myself from all sorts as I've pointed out to you .

And, yet again, I'll point out I've never said any organisation can do anything about it. Ive ..repeatedly..said nothing can be done about it . They can only police their own members . Which is why I think it better those who want to work face to face with migrants do so under the auspices of reputable agencies and not their own bat . I've never once said they can be made to do so. Quite the opposite. But you know that already .

Your accusation is a fucking straw man. Now you've moved the goal posts again when called on it . There's nothing stopping you posting a thread on the demolition . Also I can't have a discussion with myself much less dictate what anyone else talks about. That's insulting people's intelligence . Your argument amounts to nothing more than don't discuss what's all over the newspapers . Pretend you never saw it . Allegations of inappropriate behaviour coming from certain groups of people should be ignored because they're immune as a body . Nobody should scrutinise or discuss it .

Nobody's making you post on this thread either .

 

[free spirit]

That discussion on demolition has / had been going on in this thread to some extent, but you opted to focus on yourself and your point instead - a point that was pretty much done on page 3 of this thread when I posted the admin response to the issue which would seem to me to have addressed all the points you've just made.

I'll post it again seeing as you ignored it previously.

One of the oddities of Calais is that there is no effective control of who goes on site or what they do when they are there- it is one of the reasons it is such a dangerous place for minors.

We can't single handedly 'make' Calais safe but as volunteers we can do three things;
1. behave in the right way ourselves;
2. make sure the places we have control over are safe, respectful and appropriate;
3. report any behaviour that is outside our control.

So what does that mean?

We ask all volunteers to register with an association or organisation partly for safety but partly because they have a code of conduct. When you sign up to work with eg HelpRefugees/l'Auberge for example you agree to their standards of behaviour which are based on the UNHCR guidelines.

Some organisations which work in sensitive areas operate vetting of volunteers; the medical caravans check GMC numbers before you are allowed to work; the youth service ask for a current DBS check before you can get anywhere near their programmes. This is why requests to tell people where to find the children are given such short shrift; volunteers are working to make these places 'safe spaces' and all the grassroots organisations work to discourage casual un-vetted contact with these vulnerable groups.

if you see or hear something that concerns you, report the volunteer to the organisation they are registered with. That organisation will have a process for managing issues as part of their safeguarding process.

some issues involve people who are not registered with anyone; they are, in a completely unregulated environment, inevitably more difficult to deal with. We recommend;
contact one of the senior representatives of an association on the ground for advice. These people know the camp, the volunteers, the hangers-around and the situation and it's unique complexity. They can tell you what you can do, such as contacting the community leaders.
if a crime has been committed please report to the appropriate authority. Please note the CRS are not in most circumstances the appropriate authority.

Remember the site is technically illegal and uncontrolled; there is no one person or group responsible and able to control or manage what goes on. Everyone is doing what they can; and new things are always being explored to try and improve safeguarding on site. We can also all reflect on how we behave in camp either volunteering or when visiting friends and make sure we are respectful and behave appropriately.

As far as I can see this post should have answered all your concerns, yet you opted to continue with your own rants rather than even commenting on it.

 

[Red Cat]

He never comments on anything anyone actually posts.

 

[trashpony]

This could be a really interesting thread but instead it's utterly tedious and about as nuanced as a Big Mac

 

[Casually Red]

That discussion on demolition has / had been going on in this thread to some extent, but you opted to focus on yourself and your point instead - a point that was pretty much done on page 3 of this thread when I posted the admin response to the issue which would seem to me to have addressed all the points you've just made.

I'll post it again seeing as you ignored it previously.



As far as I can see this post should have answered all your concerns, yet you opted to continue with your own rants rather than even commenting on it.

Balls . I not only read it immediately and appreciated it I attached a like to it to express that . It's clearly visible . From then on in and before almost every other post I made was in response to others accusing me off all sorts for even bringing the subject up. That's also clearly visible . I was coming back to the thread days later having to deal with a string of replies in that vein that I had no intention of letting go. Including a whole heap of them accusing myself and Liamo of setting up troll accounts ? Fucking outrageous .

You seriously think I should let bollocks like that go unanswered ? And there's no sniffy criticism coming from you towards the idiots who were responsible for posting that bollocks .

Fact is I was largely satisfied with the admin post you stuck up . It chimed with my own experience of volunteer work . What I was dealing with after that was largely personal attacks . And you seemed happy enough to join in but now criticise me for wasting bandwidth responding to . No way I was letting that sort of shite go unanswered.

 

[free spirit]

It's a shame you chose not to comment to that effect on page 3, and instead to post these 2 posts to kick things off again. A simple decent honest response to that post at that time and a little contrition and you'd not have had any need to respond to any attacks because they'd not have happened.

The vulnerable will attract the exploitative, no matter in what guise they arrive . Some of this will no doubt also be plain stupidity by idiots out of their depth who can't see the harm they're doing . Who don't realise it actually is exploitative and deeply unfair and unhealthy . Well meaning amateurs can often make a bad situation worse .
I've said before, repeatedly, there's nuances in all these relationships were there's a major power imbalance . The article stresses that too . But they're still bang out of order so I'm not really interested in any nuance . I think it's irrelevant really . It should be zero tolerance .

I've also stated there's very little anyone can do about it . Being aware of it as a problem and policing ones own behaviour is something that can be done. As is reporting anyone who's fucking around . But even that will only go so far .

Have you ever considered the position that such vulnerable people shouldn't be volunteers in the first place ? That they're a fucking hindrance ? Using the plight of others to validate themselves ? That they are plainly unfit for purpose ?
This is a human tragedy in Calais. People, not a cause or a position . It's not fucking Occupy .theres a shit load of idiots that shouldn't be there at all .that's why this bollocks is happening .

 

[Casually Red]

It's a shame you chose not to comment to that effect on page 3, and instead to post these 2 posts to kick things off again. A simple decent honest response to that post at that time and a little contrition and you'd not have had any need to respond to any attacks because they'd not have happened.

I posted direct replies to both yourself and wilf who'd quoted my posts ? You're having a go at me for replying to your reply to me ?
I posted my opinion. Namely that regardless of any nuance these things shouldn't have been happening, they shouldn't be defended . And that vulnerable, out of their depth people aren't fit for purpose when it comes to this type of face to face work . I've nothing to apologise for in this regard . Contrition me bum .
I left it for 3 whole days and came back to a load of bollocks about Putin ffs . Personalised attacks from grudge bearing wankers . I left it again and I came back to a string of accusations about troll accounts .
Fuck that . I've a right to respond to it .

 

[Manter]

My talk of registered relief agencies who have a zero tolerance policy ? Do you dispute that's the case ?

They don't have zero tolerance. Even UN 'strongly discourages'- it doesn't ban.

 

[free spirit]

I posted direct replies to both yourself and wilf who'd quoted my posts ? You're having a go at me for replying to your reply to me ?

My post that you replied to had nothing to do with you, I was replying to Wilf's suggestion about ostracising volunteers.

I'm suggesting that if you actually gave a shit then you'd have commented on the official statement made.

 

[Casually Red]

My post that you replied to had nothing to do with you, I was replying to Wilf's suggestion about ostracising volunteers.

I'm suggesting that if you actually gave a shit then you'd have commented on the official statement made.

Your post was directly below my reply to wilf, right after my post . You hadn't quoted wilf. Perfectly easy mistake to make . Had I not been distracted by other posts giving dogs abuse I probably would have replied. Fact is I left the thread alone for days .

And there you go again judging who's " worthy enough" to give a shit about migrants being exploited . I already know your position on that one .

 

[Humberto]

These are incredibly vulnerable people stretched to their limit in terms of being able to cope with shit, eg. traveling thousands of miles somehow only to end up in a 'jungle'.

Who is helping them though? They are few and far between. I don't. They are not wanted. Such incidents ARE despicable. But you are talking about human behaviour, what can you expect? Perfect discipline and judgement all the time? Would government institutions bring that? It would suit some agendas to run with it, the thread attracted RW trolls for example. What COULD have happened if volunteers hadn't stepped in?

 

[free spirit]

And there you go again judging who's " worthy enough" to give a shit about migrants being exploited . I already know your position on that one .

it's not about who's worthy enough, it's about who actually gives a shit.

 

[Casually Red]

[

it's not about who's worthy enough, it's about who actually gives a shit.

It's about you not being the one who gets to decide that . You're just mouthing off in bad grace.

 

[Casually Red]

They don't have zero tolerance. Even UN 'strongly discourages'- it doesn't ban.

Both the named charities in the OP do have a zero tolerance approach . The UNHCR has also called on all charities in the jungle to adopt a zero tolerance approach in light of the allegations.

 

[free spirit]

[


It's about you not being the one who gets to decide that . You're just mouthing off in bad grace.

just calling it how I see it.

 

[free spirit]

Both the named charities in the OP do have a zero tolerance approach . The UNHCR has also called on all charities in the jungle to adopt a zero tolerance approach in light of the allegations.

I strongly suspect that Manter knows a fuck of a lot more about their approach than you do.

 

[Casually Red]

Well you would given you don't know a fucking thing about my own and my families background and experience and you've relied on assumptions instead . And that you've chosen to completely ignore the interviews given by both charities were they've stated their zero tolerance approach . And the statement by the UNHCR calling for all charities to adopt a zero tolerance approach .
For example one very important reason why the UNHCR doesn't itself adopt a zero tolerance approach is that it often employs local volunteers in disaster and drought stricken areas. such an approach in their case would amount to a vow of celibacy and isn't realistic much less enforceable. Theres also a vastly different power dynamic at play . It's a different scenario with non locals . Westerners .

 

[Casually Red]

Anyways I'm off to bed. Hopefully I won't have to return to just more personal digs and one upmanship. Don't see any purpose in it.

It'd also be nice if those twats who made those snide accusations against Liamo had the character to withdraw them. Won't hold my breath mind . Because they plainly don't .

 

[free spirit]

Well you would given you don't know a fucking thing about my own and my families background and experience and you've relied on assumptions instead . And that you've chosen to completely ignore the interviews given by both charities were they've stated their zero tolerance approach . And the statement by the UNHCR calling for all charities to adopt a zero tolerance approach .
For example one very important reason why the UNHCR doesn't itself adopt a zero tolerance approach is that it often employs local volunteers in disaster and drought stricken areas. such an approach in their case would amount to a vow of celibacy and isn't realistic much less enforceable. Theres also a vastly different power dynamic at play . It's a different scenario with non locals . Westerners .

I don't really need to know anything about you beyond this thread to know that what I said about Manter is true.

You could probably read between the lines to work out why.

 

[Cliff Promise]

It's not about poverty. It's about violence, aid, power, powerlessness, crime, desperation.... And poverty. The issue about calais is not that they are poor- it's that they are trapped, abused and exploited at every turn. Some refugees and volunteers fall in love; many have much more complicated and ambiguous relationships and it is the latter that have caused some discomfort and concern.

But- and it's a bit but- there are many worse things going on eg the child left paralysed by the police earlier in the week, gangs of paedophiles and traffickers preying on the refugees.... No one seems to care about that. Odd they care so much about this.

Okay that's all fair points, and I think it is very worrying if those crimes are being conducted against the refugees. Is it your view that the other crimes you refer to are being carried out by gangs among the refugees or by European gangs preying on the camp? Or a combination of both? Or even by "aid workers", I know my ex was convinced charity workers in Indonesia were preying on children there though she didn't have any evidence; just third hand stories.

It reminds me a bit of the scares about middle aged European men in Thailand with younger local partners, when in reality there is mutual benefit from such arrangements.

 

[trashpony]

It reminds me a bit of the scares about middle aged European men in Thailand with younger local partners, when in reality there is mutual benefit from such arrangements.

Well, only inasmuch as there is mutual benefit to Indian women renting out their wombs to rich Western couples or people in poverty selling a kidney