Advice re landlord/[property manager and heating.

[furluxor]

I'm sorry to hear this, what an asswipe of a manager.

I'm not an authority on the subject and I haven't really fact-checked this, just talking from memory, so all of this needs further research but my thoughts are:

Unless it's in the tenancy agreement (sounds like not), the managing agent has no right to control the heating. Same for access to the building, you're supposed to have quiet enjoyment of the property you're renting. Sounds like there's disrepair as well. Some kind of conflict is inevitable, imo. Might as well prep the ground.

It sounds like the property is an HMO, and if it is, the question is if it's licensed. I think you could check that on the council website. If it's not licensed, any section 21 notice served would be invalid. Same if no valid gas certificate was supplied, or the renter's booklet, or if deposit wasn't protected. The court is likely not to allow section 21 proceedings if the tenant has lodged a complaint (say, of disrepair) with the landlord or the council (these are seen as 'revenge' evictions, hence not allowed). If section 21 does not apply, the landlord has to go through part 8 which means it's really hard to end the tenancy unless you're at fault in some way, such as not paying rent. Essentially, the 'assured shorthold tenancy' drops the 'shorthold' aspect. Disrepair doesn't invalidate section 21 but is grounds for a rent repayment order.

It needs some careful thinking but I think I'd want a complaint to have a defence against a potential request to move out. Also, it might be worth giving the agent an idea that you could inconvenience him greatly, but have no wish to, provided that he doesn't fuck with your energy bills. Might be a way to do it where there is a dry letter from the tenants setting out the complaint, followed by a phone call along the lines of 'obviously we don't want any discord, we just don't want to pay through our nose for heating'. Hopefully the agent would fall in line and the letter would leave the opportunity open to stop any attempt at eviction/to get rent repayment in the future.

 

[teuchter]

Also, it might be worth giving the agent an idea that you could inconvenience him greatly, but have no wish to, provided that he doesn't fuck with your energy bills.

That was kind of my thinking behind the approach of taking his justification for interfering with the heating - damp problems - and turning it into potential evidence of his / the landlord's negligence.

 

[teuchter]

There is very little double glazing downstairs, big gaps around the big wooden and glass windowed back door which is not very safe security wise either and the insulation is rotted away to nothing in the loft.
I wonder who gives the certificate and when it was assessed.

It wouldn't surprise me if it's a bit dodgy that it's so good

My impression is that EPCs are virtually meaningless and based on bluntly applied tick box exercises that bear little relationship to the actual performance of the building.

 

[WouldBe]

Can you place something warm under the sensors to trick them into thinking it's warmer than it is?

It's a really shitty position to be in.

Drape a hot water bottle over the thermostat.

 

[WouldBe]

My impression is that EPCs are virtually meaningless and based on bluntly applied tick box exercises that bear little relationship to the actual performance of the building.

Might be right there. Although my place is an old Victorian terrace it has up-to-date double glazing, has been insulated on the inside walls, has 14" insulation in the loft and both solar PV and thermal yet only scores a C.

 

[furluxor]

That was kind of my thinking behind the approach of taking his justification for interfering with the heating - damp problems - and turning it into potential evidence of his / the landlord's negligence.

I agree. The agent is trying to fix their own problem with someone else's money, or at least to cloak it for as long as possible. The latter is possible to put up with if you really need the place, the former - not. I liked the thinking in your post, I just didn't do any quoting because it was nearly midnight and I was dying to collapse in bed

 

[quimcunx]

The issue with all of the solutions is that their situation is precarious. The rent is 'cheap' and they could end up having to move out and find somewhere even more expensive or have the rent put up to cover costs of proper repairs and maintenance. Because heaven forfend the landlord should have put aside any of the rent he's been pulling in for keeping the property in good order.

 

[furluxor]

The issue with all of the solutions is that their situation is precarious. The rent is 'cheap' and they could end up having to move out and find somewhere even more expensive or have the rent put up to cover costs of proper repairs and maintenance. Because heaven forfend the landlord should have put aside any of the rent he's been pulling in for keeping the property in good order.

True, and it's easy to talk when it's someone else's life and I'm cosy in secure housing. I don't know if I understood the OP's post correctly, but it seems that it's a 'fucked if you do, fucked if you don't' situation since the energy bills are unaffordable even if there's no conflict with the agent. Worse still, if other tenants can't afford the energy bills they might abscond without paying their share, and who's left to pick up the pieces?

I'd try to unite the household, put the safeguards in (letter, etc.) and try to haggle with the agent. Failing that, dig in and litigate. But that really depends on whether OP is able to pull it off alone, or has legally minded friends. I have lots of love for Shelter and law centres but the former proved useless and the latter worse than useless to me in the past. Overworked & underfunded. In my experience landlords/agents usually back off when you enforce your rights but you can't hesitate or they smell it. It's a really stressful thing to go through either way

 

[kittyP]

Cunt is refusing to give us an email address to contact him and is insisting on WhatsApp only.

He can come into our home whenever he likes and essentially do what he wants but we don't even know his surname and have no way of officially contacting him.

 

[teuchter]

Cunt is refusing to give us an email address to contact him and is insisting on WhatsApp only.

He can come into our home whenever he likes and essentially do what he wants but we don't even know his surname and have no way of officially contacting him.

They are supposed to give 24 hrs notice in writing and get your consent.

You could start taking a note of each time this guy enters the property without your consent (and tell him and the landlord that you're doing this).

I don't see how you could reasonably be expected to give your consent without him actually telling you who he is.

 

[kittyP]

They are supposed to give 24 hrs notice in writing and get your consent.

You could start taking a note of each time this guy enters the property without your consent (and tell him and the landlord that you're doing this).

I don't see how you could reasonably be expected to give your consent without him actually telling you who he is.

He does give notice before entering my flat or individual bedrooms downstairs but he always in the general areas downstairs.

After he refused to give an email address, he called me. I didn't answer and he left a garbled message. I didn't understand it all but he said he didn't understand and could I call him back.

I texted him to say I wouldn't call back as I was trying to calm down from a panic attack.

 

[farmerbarleymow]

He sounds like a right cunt kittyP

Hope you're doing OK.

 

[WouldBe]

He does give notice before entering my flat or individual bedrooms downstairs but he always in the general areas downstairs.

After he refused to give an email address, he called me. I didn't answer and he left a garbled message. I didn't understand it all but he said he didn't understand and could I call him back.

I texted him to say I wouldn't call back as I was trying to calm down from a panic attack.

Change the locks.

 

[kittyP]

He sounds like a right cunt kittyP

Hope you're doing OK.

Thank you

I can't work out if he is just utterly incompetent and doesn't realise that what he's doing is wrong or is a manipulative cunt.
Probably a bit of both.

 

[kittyP]

Change the locks.

I wish that would fix things but I don't think we legally can

 

[kalmatthew]

I wish that would fix things but I don't think we legally can

Can Tenants Change the Locks? - Landlord Insider

Can your tenants change the locks? The answer isn't a flat no. Find out here why a tenant can change the locks and what you can do about it.

www.landlordvision.co.uk

This is a very pro landlord site(know your enemy!) and even it lists one of the reasons that tenants can change locks as "The Landlord Keeps Accessing the Property Without Giving Notice" and comments later:

The right to “quiet enjoyment” is enshrined in law and, therefore, not negotiable or ‘optional’.

Landlords must give reasonable notice to tenants before entering a rental property to carry out repairs or do a routine property inspection.


So I suspect the law would be on your side although may not help if your trying to avoid large scale conflict.

 

[Boudicca]

What do you mean by 'general areas' kittyP ? If it's just the hallway and the place he keeps his stuff, then I'm not sure you have a case, but if he goes into a shared kitchen or lounge, then maybe the 24 hours notice should apply.

 

[Glitter]

kittyP I’m almost certain you can change the lock, provided you keep the old one and make good on it when you leave.

 

[kittyP]

What do you mean by 'general areas' kittyP ? If it's just the hallway and the place he keeps his stuff, then I'm not sure you have a case, but if he goes into a shared kitchen or lounge, then maybe the 24 hours notice should apply.

I mean the halls, living room/kitchen, bathroom and basement.

 

[kittyP]

I really don't think changing the locks is the way to go (at this stage anyway).
There has been enough nerves (on my part and at least one of the other tenants who wants to be involved) about emailing.

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

It may come to this.
But, we are aware that if he did put the bill back in his name he could essentially charge us what he likes so the financial hit would still fall on us.

They can't overbill you, that's unlawful, they're only allowed to recoup the actual costs.

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

Cunt is refusing to give us an email address to contact him and is insisting on WhatsApp only.

He can come into our home whenever he likes and essentially do what he wants but we don't even know his surname and have no way of officially contacting him.

If you have a flat, then they can't come into your home without giving notice * and * you giving permission (unless in an emergency, like gas leak).

Is it self-contained flats in the building, or is it an HMO?

If you don't want to contact Shelter or Citizen's Advice or a law centre, try Acorn tenants union.

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

I wish that would fix things but I don't think we legally can

If you don't know what your legal rights are, then contact an organisation that can advise you what your legal rights are, eg Shelter, law centre, Citizen's Advice, Acorn Tenants Union.

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

kittyP I’m almost certain you can change the lock, provided you keep the old one and make good on it when you leave.

Correct. Change the locks. Keep the old ones, and change back when moving out.

 

[Boudicca]

This combativeness is all very well but, as kittyP has explained, they are in a very vulnerable situation in that they are paying undermarket rents and anything which really pisses off the landlord could tip him into evicting them.

So maybe something like this:


" We understand that there could well be a damp issue if the heating is not on enough. However, just as you cannot afford to do the work needed to solve the problem, we cannot afford to pay for the heating to be on continuously.

We have done some research on how best to manage the problem and will undertake to:

open the bathroom window when showering
open the kitchen window for ventilation when cooking
wipe down any condensation on the windows in the morning
clean off any mould as soon as it appears
manage the heating to minimise the damp issue without it costing a fortune

In return we would ask that we could have back control of the thermostat. It really isn't right that we should be paying the bills but have no say in how much is spent.

We would also politely request that the property manager refrain from entering the living room/kitchen and bathroom without giving the required 24 hours notice. We can make an exception to our 'right of quiet enjoyment' for the basement where he keeps his tools, but the other areas are private and paid for by us and his behaviour has been unprofessional.

 

[kittyP]

This combativeness is all very well but, as kittyP has explained, they are in a very vulnerable situation in that they are paying undermarket rents and anything which really pisses off the landlord could tip him into evicting them.

So maybe something like this:


" We understand that there could well be a damp issue if the heating is not on enough. However, just as you cannot afford to do the work needed to solve the problem, we cannot afford to pay for the heating to be on continuously.

We have done some research on how best to manage the problem and will undertake to:

open the bathroom window when showering
open the kitchen window for ventilation when cooking
wipe down any condensation on the windows in the morning
clean off any mould as soon as it appears
manage the heating to minimise the damp issue without it costing a fortune

In return we would ask that we could have back control of the thermostat. It really isn't right that we should be paying the bills but have no say in how much is spent.

We would also politely request that the property manager refrain from entering the living room/kitchen and bathroom without giving the required 24 hours notice. We can make an exception to our 'right of quiet enjoyment' for the basement where he keeps his tools, but the other areas are private and paid for by us and his behaviour has been unprofessional.

Well after he refused to give us an email address, I attached the email that I'd already written (in collaboration with some of the other tenants) to the WhatsApp convo as a pdf, so we'll see what he says to that.
Sent yesterday early evening and he acknowledged it but no actual reply.

 

[kittyP]

If you don't know what your legal rights are, then contact an organisation that can advise you what your legal rights are, eg Shelter, law centre, Citizen's Advice, Acorn Tenants Union.

I contacted the London Renters Union last week,still waiting to hear back.
Shelters page doesn't have anything really helpful to say on this specific situation.
Citizen's Advice, every time which way I have tried to get through to them there is no one available.
Acorn is new to me, will try them.

 

[WouldBe]

I mean the halls, living room/kitchen, bathroom and basement.

So how are you supposed to know when it's safe to have a bath / shower without some perv walking in on you?

Change the locks.

 

[kittyP]

So how are you supposed to know when it's safe to have a bath / shower without some perv walking in on you?

Change the locks.

To be fair he has never walked in on anyone in the bathroom. They lock from the inside.
I just mean he can and does access the bathrooms when he is here, sometimes.

 

[kittyP]

Can people please stop suggesting changing the locks now.
Thank you for your help but that is just not really an option right now,
It is not just me, there are 6 adults living downstairs and not all of them even want to be involved in this dispute.

Plus what I have said and quimcunx and Boudicca have referred to.
Its easy from the outside, from a different situation and/or the safety of secure housing to suggest something so confrontational but it is not that simple from this side.