Accused rapist Ched Evans to be released from prison
- Thread starter Bahnhof Strasse
- Start date
The Manchester football scene. Isn't that clear from my post?
Treacle Toes
Time
You said it was illustrative of the dynamics that underlie the social lives of all those involved. Please spell them out to me, I am not from Manchester, nor into the football scene. You've made a claim, please explain it.
bemused
Well-Known Member
IIRC he was questioned about this sexual practices and admitted to other threesomes with other footballing chums, he does seem rather slimy.
Neither am I!
My flatmate - ex manager of bars and restaurants (more restaurants actually - he has Giggs, Scholes and Fergie's details on his phone still for bookings etc for example) and who knows Ched Evans' partner said as much to me yesterday morning.
In fact he had a bunch of his Manchester crowd round on the Friday who were down for a night out and they were saying similar things.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
When I say them, I include him. He said she urged him to fuck her harder. If she did, he can reasonably have assumed consent and he didn't rape her.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Eh? Why not?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Is this group sex flatmate?
No - a friend of her's from Manchester though, incidentally
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Cheers, just wondered if we'd met them before
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
They all do . Scum the lot of them .
Wilf
Slouching towards Billingham
Yep, the 'I've got a girl' text seemed to me to be shorthand for a clear agreement about everything that was to follow. Confirmed by Evans immediately stopping what he was about to do - even more important than reporting a racially motivated assault apparently... and then by all the sneaking into the room, leaving early, concealing his identity. I'm obviously not privy to what was said, if anything , in terms of consent, I don't know how capable of giving consent she seemed to him. However, as you say, these are issues he didn't give a shit about. Courts do what courts do, they have particular standards of evidence and certainty. However, even a cursory glance at the sequence of events and his agreed behaviour screams out that this was a vile predatory act.
I might be reaching on this, but psychologically Evans seemed to be playing the role of alpha male with supporting entourage in all this. 'Giving her up' seems an appropriate way of putting it. Always have to remember that courts see evidence in particular ways - utterly spurious 'new evidence' in this case. However I think it's also legitimate for outsiders like us on this thread to make a reasoned judgement about what was going on. I think it was pretty clear what was going on in this case.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
cherchez la femme
Treacle Toes
Time
Right, but you are still not saying anything of any substance to support your claim that this is illustrative....illustrative of what? Name dropping doesn't describe anything.
'Similar things' - What does that mean ffs?
Treacle Toes
Time
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Being as there's a lot of people saying things from your utterly spurious to allegations of perjury perhaps the role of the ccrc in this should be considered. After all, they felt the evidence weighty enough to refer the case to the court of appeal.
Treacle Toes
Time
Nothing about their behaviour before or after suggests her 'consent' was ever important to them. I doubt she was even conscious when they left the hotel.
emanymton
A cat politely sat on the flaming gardener.
Isn't it interesting how he has a mate for every occasion.
Right, but you are still not saying anything of any substance to support your claim that this is illustrative....illustrative of what? Name dropping doesn't describe anything.
'Similar things' - What does that mean ffs?
Just trashing the scene really and everyone involved with it - footballers, WAGs and hangers-on.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Well that's just "what if he raped her?", and there's no testimony to any of it. There is testimony, albeit his and M's, that she urged him on.
Do you deny that if Evans heard her say "fuck me harder" to him , it probably wasn't rape?
Raheem
Well-Known Member
Yes. The only thing where "reasonable doubt" applies is a guilty verdict. Judgements about what to accept and what to believe are just that. Hardly anyone would ever be convicted of anything if the courts looked and all the various facts of a case and decided whether they were true beyond reasonable doubt.
In this case, the judge decided to accept new evidence (or, more accurately, had that decision made for them by the somewhat secretive CCRC) when there were real questions about the reliability of the evidence, and when the new evidence was actually quite limited in terms of its impact on the facts of the case. It helped to suggest that the alleged victim may have blacked out before, but this doesn't make Evans innocent. It also corroborated some of Evans' testimony about her sexual behaviour, but given the possibility that the evidence may have been bought and the fact that it's not beyond the bounds of possibility that we are talking about coincidence rather that actual corroboration, this might not be considered particularly strong evidence. On the other hand, allowing the evidence allowed a lot of the trial to be given over to examining the character and sexual morals of the alleged victim in a way that might have made the jury less sympathetic towards her.
The tricky bit is that you have the CCRC taking lots of private representations from expensive lawyers and effectively imposing on the retrial court, in an unappealable decision, that it has to allow the defence to throw whatever mud it likes at the alleged victim.
Treacle Toes
Time
I am not even convinced she even knew he was there, let alone consented to sex with him or told him to fuck her harder. As you say we only have those two scumbags word for it and given the way in which they set this up/behaved before and after I find it very difficult to believe them.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
But you don't deny that it probably wasn't rape if Evans heard her say it to him? That's the point.
Raheem
Well-Known Member
Is it rape if someone consents during sex? I think it probably isn't, but I'm not 100% sure.
Gromit
International Man of Misery
The prejudices of our sexual society are clearly on show here.
Drunken man being ravished by two fit young women automatically equals lucky bastard.
Drunken woman being ravished by two fit, young, celebrity athletes automatically equals poor victim.
If she enjoys it she's a slut. Him a stud.
People trying to video it without her consent. i.e. Through the window. Why aren't they in the dock?
Drunken man being ravished by two fit young women automatically equals lucky bastard.
Drunken woman being ravished by two fit, young, celebrity athletes automatically equals poor victim.
If she enjoys it she's a slut. Him a stud.
People trying to video it without her consent. i.e. Through the window. Why aren't they in the dock?
Athos
Well-Known Member
But the others' evidence is of very little value in establishing that fact. And that's not to mention all the other issues with it!
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
No but it does, if believed, establish a pattern of behaviour of her consenting to sex and then forgetting, which is what Evans was asserting in his defence.
Treacle Toes
Time
Are you seriously asking me if consensual sex is rape?
The point is...do we believe him? I don't.
Joe Reilly
Well-Known Member
I haven't been following this thread too closely so this may already have come up. Until today I wasn't aware of one rather pertinent fact: the woman in question has never claimed she was raped. Not then. Not subsequently. Never.
Police only got involved when she went to report a lost (or stolen) handbag. The rape charges came entirely from the contributions the two accused made when questioned about it.
Had they opted for a 'no comment' reply it would have been next to impossible to bring any charges whatsoever.
People can make up their own minds about what that says about what they accused might thought of their own conduct.
But the fact remains: it was not the alleged victim, but the police alone who determined she had been raped. When people talk of the case setting unfortunate legal precedents, surely that is another one to consider?
Police only got involved when she went to report a lost (or stolen) handbag. The rape charges came entirely from the contributions the two accused made when questioned about it.
Had they opted for a 'no comment' reply it would have been next to impossible to bring any charges whatsoever.
People can make up their own minds about what that says about what they accused might thought of their own conduct.
But the fact remains: it was not the alleged victim, but the police alone who determined she had been raped. When people talk of the case setting unfortunate legal precedents, surely that is another one to consider?
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