Abortion deleted from UK Government-organised international human rights statement

[teqniq]

What it says in the title (taken from the strapline for the article). What with the overturning of Roe v Wade in the States surely this cannot be a coincidence? Just WTF???

Abortion deleted from UK-organised international statement

A UK Government-organised multinational statement committing to the fundamental rights of women and girls has been amended to remove references to ‘sexual and reproductive health and rights’ and ‘bodily autonomy’. The statement was issued by the UK as part of an intergovernmental conference it...

humanists.uk

 

[SpookyFrank]

Presumably the EU has done something similar, to allow it to tactically ignore what Poland's been up to in recent years.

E2a: and Malta. Apparently it's very common for Maltese folk to come to the UK for all sorts of healthcare, but particularly abortion.

 

[teqniq]

Presumably the EU has done something similar, to allow it to tactically ignore what Poland's been up to in recent years.

Please could you elaborate?

 

[SpookyFrank]

Please could you elaborate?

Abortion is severely restricted in Poland already, but there have been multiple attempts to tighten the noose still further with new laws including a ban on abortions performed to save a mother's life and the prospect of miscarriages being investigated by police as potential murders.

E2a: The EU parliament has officially criticised Poland's abortion laws. And then done absolutely fuck all else.

 

[NoXion]

I bet there's nothing in there about requiring healthy people to donate a kidney. But when it comes to having one's womb interfered with by others, it's apparently A-OK?

The removal of language relating to bodily autonomy is especially insidious, because it's not just about abortion.

 

[teqniq]

I did not know this. Abortion in the UK is still technically a criminal offence and the police can choose to prosecute:

Abortion Is More Under Threat In Britain Than You Think

Abortion should be a human right in Britain. It isn’t.

www.refinery29.com

 

[Dystopiary]

I did not know this. Abortion in the UK is still technically a criminal offence and the police can choose to prosecute:

Abortion Is More Under Threat In Britain Than You Think

Abortion should be a human right in Britain. It isn’t.

www.refinery29.com

I'm really glad that article was written but language like this is unhelpful:

abort her unborn child

They should have said something like "terminate her preganancy" imo.

 

[8ball]

Unhelpfully accurate.

 

[WhyLikeThis]

Unhelpfully accurate.

So, you believe a foetus is a child?

 

[WhyLikeThis]

It’s fucking 2022 and we’re having this debate. Honestly, the human race is far past it’s sell by date.

 

[8ball]

So, you believe a foetus is a child?

Hope this helps:

Unborn Child

Definition of Unborn Child in the Medical Dictionary by The Free Dictionary

medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com

 

[8ball]

It’s fucking 2022 and we’re having this debate. Honestly, the human race is far past it’s sell by date.

Ooh, keep going, I've nearly got a line on my card.

 

[spanglechick]

Hope this helps:

Unborn Child

Definition of Unborn Child in the Medical Dictionary by The Free Dictionary

medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com

A) That’s an American site, which - given the context isn’t unproblematic.
B) it’s a redirect- precisely because the term “unborn child” is not medical terminology.

 

[8ball]

A) That’s an American site, which - given the context isn’t unproblematic.
B) it’s a redirect- precisely because the term “unborn child” is not medical terminology.

No it’s not. “Fetus/foetus” is the medical terminology. People in this country also understand these words.

Most of them.

 

[spanglechick]

No it’s not. “Fetus/foetus” is the medical terminology. People in this country also understand these words.

Most of them.

I’m not sure what you’re disagreeing with.

Calling a foetus an unborn child bestows upon it the opinions, feelings and beliefs of the speaker. That’s why such language isn’t usually used in medical or legal contexts.

Using it in the context of the attack on women’s bodily autonomy and reproductive rights is inflammatory.

 

[8ball]

I’m not sure what you’re disagreeing with.

Calling a foetus an unborn child bestows upon it the opinions, feelings and beliefs of the speaker. That’s why such language isn’t usually used in medical or legal contexts.

Using it in the context of the attack on women’s bodily autonomy and reproductive rights is inflammatory.

Are you saying a foetus isn’t an unborn child? While also being a medical term for an unborn child? Or are you saying it isn’t the medical term for an unborn child?

Also, it wasn’t me that was disagreeing with something. I was agreeing with something - that being the wording in the article (it maybe wasn’t the terminology I’d use, but I see no problem with it).

I disagree quite strongly with the current UK legal situation, though (ie. with abortion having a default status of illegality). I probably wouldn’t have been bothered were it not for recent events in the US, which have made certain accepted arrangements feel a bit shaky.

 

[bluescreen]

Are you saying a foetus isn’t an unborn child? While also being a medical term for an unborn child? Or are you saying it isn’t the medical term for an unborn child?

Also, it wasn’t me that was disagreeing with something. I was agreeing with something - that being the wording in the article (it maybe wasn’t the terminology I’d use, but I see no problem with it).

Why are you using such emotive language? A foetus is a foetus. Eventually it may reach the stage of being able to be born as a viable human but until then it is as much an unborn child as I am a potential best-selling novelist.

(Edited)

 

[teqniq]

Semantics central. Abortion is a woman's right to choose. End of.

 

[8ball]

Semantics central. Abortion is a woman's right to choose. End of.

“End of.”?

Might as well just concede defeat.

 

[8ball]

Why are you using such emotive language? A foetus is a foetus. Eventually it may reach the stage of being able to be born as a viable human but until then it is as much an unborn child as I am a potential best-selling novelist.

(Edited)

I think when you can’t handle the use of a term like “unborn child” in this kind of debate I can’t help but think you are either trying to conceal something from yourself or from others.

 

[bluescreen]

I think when you can’t handle the use of a term like “unborn child” in this kind of debate I can’t help but think you are either trying to conceal something from yourself or from others.

No. I reckon when someone uses a term like "unborn child" they are using emotive language. They are assuming, idealistically, that any pregnancy will proceed to term. They are envisaging the outcome of pregnancy and ignoring its development and process because they are focusing on their hoped outcome and ignoring the actual living human who is hosting the foetus.

In short, bloke values nebulous potential human life over actual living female. Bloke has opinion on how woman manages her body.

 

[8ball]

No. I reckon when someone uses a term like "unborn child" they are using emotive language. They are assuming, idealistically, that any pregnancy will proceed to term. They are envisaging the outcome of pregnancy and ignoring its development and process because they are focusing on their hoped outcome and ignoring the actual living human who is hosting the foetus.

In short, bloke values nebulous potential human life over actual living female. Bloke has opinion on how woman manages her body.

This is so infantile I’m struggling to do anything but laugh.

Maybe the comment about humanity being past its sell-by date was on the money after all.

 

[bluescreen]

This is so infantile I’m struggling to do anything but laugh.

It is an honour to insult your intelligence, sir.

 

[8ball]

It is an honour to insult your intelligence, sir.

Well, it gave me a giggle if nothing else.
Have a good night.

 

[kittyP]

8ball can you please explain clearly why you think what you're saying is helpful?

 

[8ball]

8ball can you please explain clearly why you think what you're saying is helpful?

Helpful / unhelpful to whom, and for what purpose?

All I did was contend that the term “unborn child” was not unreasonable to use in discussing abortion legality.

 

[kittyP]

Helpful / unhelpful to whom, and for what purpose?

All I did was contend that the term “unborn child” was not unreasonable to use in discussing abortion legality.

Helpful to women that are understandably terrified the world over at their rights being eroded and the discussions they are trying to have.

If you don't understand that "unborn child" is a much more loaded term and considered more sympathetic to the "pro life" movement than "foetus" (when discussing abortion rights) then I'm not sure what to say to you.

 

[8ball]

Helpful to women that are understandably terrified the world over at their rights being eroded and the discussions they are trying to have.

If you don't understand that "unborn child" is a much more loaded term and considered more sympathetic to the "pro life" movement than "foetus" (when discussing abortion rights) then I'm not sure what to say to you.

My current pro-choice position is based on it being an *informed*choice, but you are beginning to persuade me that I may have been naive and may need to reconsider.

Not that it does or should make any difference to anything what I think, obviously.

 

[kittyP]

My current pro-choice position is based on it being an *informed*choice, but you are beginning to persuade me that I may have been naive and may need to reconsider.

Not that it does or should make any difference to anything what I think, obviously.

Sorry, I'm not just trying to be argumentative but I'm not clear as to what you mean.

 

[8ball]

Sorry, I'm not just trying to be argumentative but I'm not clear as to what you mean.

You get the pro-life talking about “killing babies” etc. and I think that is abhorrent, but I don’t think using a term like “abort an unborn child” is quite in that bracket, and I think we have to accept that different people will draw different lines with this.

I do think that translating everything into Latinate biological language can obscure the decision that is being made, and I think it should be a carefully considered and frankly difficult decision (which it has been for every woman I’ve known who has had any non pill-based abortion). And if it’s an easy decision I’d hope that was entirely based on the factors overwhelmingly pushing in one direction.
And then when the decision has been made it should be entirely between the woman concerned and medical staff and the rest of the world should really butt out.

There is an impulse in the pro-choice lobby to trivialise the life of a foetus. I agree that the choice must start and end with the woman concerned, but I don’t agree that either side of the choice is trivial.

I also don’t agree that it’s ever my call. I’m not denying anyone any rights whatsoever.

Tbh I feel quite lucky that it’s not a call I’ll ever have to make.

Sometimes pro-choice gets conflated with pro-abortion. I think abortion is always a case of us mitigating something that has gone wrong (even if something as trivial as a contraception failure). So it’s good that the mitigation is there, but like when, say, amputating an infected limb (sorry I can’t think of a better analogy right now), it doesn’t mean the amputation is something to celebrate.