A Woman's Place is Speaking Up in Wales

[Sea Star]

What you mean is that organisations have been implementing self-id ahead of the law.
Which is why these demands are also my demands. Take a good look at 2 and 3.

View attachment 132186 .

No. I don't. Self id for everything except birth certificates has existed for years. I have a female passport. I'm legally a woman. Please don't try to explain my own rights to me.

 

[Sea Star]

'... bad-faith requests for evidence, or repeated questions, the purpose of which is not clarification or elucidation, but rather an attempt to derail a discussion or to wear down the patience of one's opponent. The troll who uses this tactic also uses fake civility....'

If there is a case of a man telling women they're wrong on this thread its here.

 

[Sea Star]

Nor am I getting into that debate with you here. If I thought I'd get anywhere with you and many others here I would. But I reckon the only thing that will lead to is the thread getting binned. I've said most of what I had to say in the matter elsewhere. I've learnt much more since. I think it's much too important for women that they know a meeting of this nature is being held where they are welcome regardless of their position on trans "inclusion" and where they can still regard themselves as "cis" if they want to but be able to say "But we're different in many ways and that needs to be reflected in the law and by the courts and wider society" if they, unlike me, think that transwomen are women.

If that's all this meeting was it wouldn't have to be kept secret.

So, repeatedly you say you don't want to debate this. And you've decided I'm not a woman.

And you're not taking any of my points on board.

Just so we're clear here.

 

[Athos]

If there is a case of a man telling women they're wrong on this thread its here.

I'm pointing out the hypocrisy of her 'sealion' nonsense.

 

[MochaSoul]

No. I don't. Self id for everything except birth certificates has existed for years. I have a female passport. I'm legally a woman. Please don't try to explain my own rights to me.

Girl Guiding UK has adopted a self-id policy which states parents would not be informed if their daughter's group includes a trans identified boy. This despite a report by the NSPCC on peer sexual abuse (child-on-child sexual offenses) - counting only the calls made to them - affecting mainly girls (see page 12).

 

[Sea Star]

I don't bother to engage with him anymore. He's a sealion. It's textbook.

Yes. I recognised that too.

 

[Sea Star]

Not at Woman's Place events.

I think we differ in what constitutes hate speech.

 

[Athos]

Yes. I recognised that too.

Yeah, yeah, course you did.

 

[Sea Star]

Girl Guiding UK has adopted a self-id policy which states parents would not be informed if their daughter's group includes a trans identified boy. This despite a report by the NSPCC on peer sexual abuse (child-on-child sexual offenses) - counting only the calls made to them - affecting mainly girls (see page 12).

Children don't usually apply for passports

 

[Vintage Paw]

I'll just repeat it for anyone to read, not bothered who responds:

"Male-bodied people, whether they identify as women or not, haven't been allowed into these spaces since the rights were established." Genitalia hasn't been a defining factor of whether trans people are considered their preferred gender or not, as explained in the long thread I quoted above. Self-id already happens because it is, practically speaking, the only thing that can happen unless we deny the existence of trans people and their right to exist in public life altogether. Obtaining a GRC doesn't change this.

"It is, of course, a different matter for TW who have transitioned." What do you mean by 'transitioned'? You mean genital surgery, yes? That's not what transition means. Transition can involve genital surgery for some people, but it doesn't have to. Transition encompasses a range of things, and perhaps might broadly fall under the umbrella of 'presenting full-time as their preferred gender.' Commonly this will include name changes and hormone treatment, but as explained in the thread I posted some people are unable to undergo hormone treatment for a variety of reasons so even this isn't necessarily the absolute marker of transition. What constitutes transition will differ from person to person depending on their circumstances. But by no means is genital surgery the point which must be crossed in order for a person to magically be transitioned.

I hope that a meeting that claims to want to look at the 'evidence' is going to take all of this into consideration, including all of what I quoted from the twitter thread on what the GRA and GRC and self-id actually means in practice.

 

[Sea Star]

Yeah, yeah, course you did.

Explain

 

[Sea Star]

Interesting question, but one that is hard to determine as you only have the person's word for it. If a man fraudulently asserts he feels like a woman, how can that be proved. There are some cases reported in the media in US/Canada/UK of transwomen commiting violent/sexual crime against women and girls. They might not be men who genuinely feel they are women, but we can only go by what they say.

And again. No evidence or any kind of rational, logical argument or explanation is offered. Nor are any points that myself or vintage paw made being acknowledged.

 

[ddraig]

Girl Guiding UK has adopted a self-id policy which states parents would not be informed if their daughter's group includes a trans identified boy. This despite a report by the NSPCC on peer sexual abuse (child-on-child sexual offenses) - counting only the calls made to them - affecting mainly girls (see page 12).

have any girls in the guides been attacked and/or sexually abused by "trans identified boys"?

 

[ddraig]

And again. No evidence or any kind of rational, logical argument or explanation is offered. Nor are any points that myself or vintage paw made being acknowledged.

pick and choose style of "debate"
pick the things that are easy, dodge or gloss over the things that would show the reality of the real "argument"

 

[iona]

When cis women say they don’t want trans women in women's spaces – because the system might be abused, because they weren’t socialised along the same lines, etc. – I always wonder: does that mean they want me in there?

Or my bigger, hairier, more masculine trans brothers?

If the genitals maketh the gender then you are not just asking for trans women out, you are asking for trans men in, and in reality I don’t think that is what you want…

This always baffles me too (well, that and what exactly is the problem with self ID given the points made in the rest of the thread you quoted).

 

[Sea Star]

Girl Guiding UK has adopted a self-id policy which states parents would not be informed if their daughter's group includes a trans identified boy. This despite a report by the NSPCC on peer sexual abuse (child-on-child sexual offenses) - counting only the calls made to them - affecting mainly girls (see page 12).

If there was anything in that report that was pertinent to transgender people self IDing I couldn't find it, or indeed anything to do with trans at all. Maybe you can point me towards that part.

 

[Sea Star]

Girl Guiding UK has adopted a self-id policy which states parents would not be informed if their daughter's group includes a trans identified boy. This despite a report by the NSPCC on peer sexual abuse (child-on-child sexual offenses) - counting only the calls made to them - affecting mainly girls (see page 12).

By the way "trans identified boy" is not a real thing. Transgender girl or transgender boy would be correct.

If you do insist on using bizarre language that is recognised by nobody except yourselves then you shouldn't be surprised if people lose patience with you and give up.

 

[MochaSoul]

If that's all this meeting was it wouldn't have to be kept secret.

So, repeatedly you say you don't want to debate this. And you've decided I'm not a woman.

And you're not taking any of my points on board.

Just so we're clear here.

Were the meeting secret Woman's Place would not advertise it. They have a website. Find it also on Facebook and Twitter. Oh and a YouTube channel with all of their speakers speeches.
I have taken your points on board. I can do that and still not accept your claims or your reasoning.

I'm very vocal and quite clear. Do you see me quaking in my boots as you call me a TERF? I sign petitions like this and share them openly and as widely as I can. I may cringe and even criticise people who say racist stuff but I don't hide in secret groups trying to expel people from a party or create petitions to get people ousted of trade union positions while thoroughly misrespresenting them. I won't jeopardise this thread though. You're the one slinging the slurs here. I won't report them though.
Ask your trans inclusive friends to do it if you want the thread binned that bad.

 

[MochaSoul]

If there was anything in that report that was pertinent to transgender people self IDing I couldn't find it, or indeed anything to do with trans at all. Maybe you can point me towards that part.

The reason to keep, indeed, strengthen, sex-based protections and exemptions is nothing to do with trans. It's all to do with sexism. You know, the sexism of Lily Madigan's as they equate their fear of black women with women's very founded caution around men.

 

[Sea Star]

Were the meeting secret Woman's Place would not advertise it. They have a website. Find it also on Facebook and Twitter. Oh and a YouTube channel with all of their speakers speeches.
I have taken your points on board. I can do that and still not accept your claims or your reasoning.

You haven't taken my points board because you're still posting the same untrue drivel you were before i debunked them.

I'm very vocal and quite clear. Do you see me quaking in my boots as you call me a TERF?

Why, is someone calling you a trans exclusionary radical feminist something that is supposed to make you quake in your boots?

I sign petitions like this and share them openly and as widely as I can. I may cringe and even criticise people who say racist stuff but I don't hide in secret groups trying to expel people from a party or create petitions to get people ousted of trade union positions while thoroughly misrespresenting them. I won't jeopardise this thread though. You're the one slinging the slurs here. I won't report them though.
Ask your trans inclusive friends to do it if you want the thread binned that bad.

and yet you won;t debate with women like me who are reasonable and genuinely trying to answer your points.

 

[Sea Star]

The reason to keep, indeed, strengthen, sex-based protections and exemptions is nothing to do with trans. It's all to do with sexism. You know, the sexism of Lily Madigan's as they equate their fear of black women with women's very founded caution around men.

trans women aren't men. And if you're going to accuse someone of racism i think you need to show evidence. Also no trans women are Lilly Madigan except Lilly Madigan.

 

[MochaSoul]

By the way "trans identified boy" is not a real thing. Transgender girl or transgender boy would be correct.

If you do insist on using bizarre language that is recognised by nobody except yourselves then you shouldn't be surprised if people lose patience with you and give up.

I don't hold much with the notion of "trans children" either. You think what you think. I think what I think.

 

[Sea Star]

I've had a lovely day with my friend and her daughters - and now I'm going to make myself something to eat, so please excuse me. I might not be back for a couple of days.

 

[Sea Star]

I don't hold much with the notion of "trans children" either. You think what you think. I think what I think.

i was a trans child so that's a hard one to convince me about. Why don;t you tell me all about why I wasn't actually a trans child and explain what was really going on - and I can come back later and read it.

 

[MochaSoul]

trans women aren't men. And if you're going to accuse someone of racism i think you need to show evidence. Also no trans women are Lilly Madigan except Lilly Madigan.

I repeat with bold quotes.

It's all to do with sexism. You know, the sexism of Lily Madigan's as they equate their fear of black women with women's very founded caution around men.

 

[MochaSoul]

Why don;t you tell me all about why I wasn't actually a trans child and explain what was really going on - and I can come back later and read it.

Keep trying! It may work... eventually.

 

[Vintage Paw]

I don't hold much with the notion of "trans children" either. You think what you think. I think what I think.

Thankfully you're not in control of their lives, and we're moving ever forward in coming to understand how to help young trans people navigate their childhood, teens, and early adulthood with the minimum of discomfort and trauma.



I know you don't like PinkNews, and I'm going to take a wild stab in the dark that you don't like Shon Faye either, so here's a link to the study itself http://www.jahonline.org/article/S1054-139X(18)30085-5/fulltext

 

[Poot]

I don't have any good arguments and I'm not clever enough to defend myself in any way on this subject. But I wanted to say that I think Sea Star quite often seems to get it in the neck from all sides and I think it's unfair. Anyone in a minority seems to have to spend a whole lot of time and energy defending themselves, or at least having to speak out for their minority group and I imagine it's exhausting.

That's all, really.

 

[MochaSoul]

Thankfully you're not in control of their lives, and we're moving ever forward in coming to understand how to help young trans people navigate their childhood, teens, and early adulthood with the minimum of discomfort and trauma.

A good thing too that I'm not the mother of a gender non conforming lesbian daughter in the clutches of Mermaids:
Mermaids UK charity ban as boy forced to live as girl

The Royal College of Psychiatrists now advocating a 'watch and wait' approach to GNC children.
Dr Polly Carmichael of the Tavistock Gender Identification Development Service used the phrase ‘Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria’ in a presentation and addressed it as an actually occurring issue. She also cited Transgender Trend as a source of information.

Dr Margaret McCartney’s article in the British Medical Journal calling for discussion: “No blood test or brain scan can tell which person with gender dysphoria will do better or worse with the medical and irreversible surgical treatments on offer [...] We need better long term data, but research into rates of de-transition has been stymied by ethics committees apparently more concerned about controversy than helping people to make good decisions”
https://www.bmj.com/content/360/bmj.k1312

 

[spanglechick]

It's a meeting though, I don't see that there's any obligation to present opposing views. They aren't the BBC.

If there's no spectrum of opinions, what's the point? If people were genuinely interested in exploring or making decisions about what constitutes womanhood from an open minded position, how will an echo chamber help them?

Don't you have The Guardian (which doesn't allow comments on trannsgeder articles and when it does it invokes "rules" to delete dissenting voices) and the Indy already? It's a meeting to give voice to the usually no-platformed on this subject.

Both the Guardian and the Independent regularly give voice to biologically-protective women. I'm not sure comments sections should be the gold standard of reasoned debate, though - attracting as it does, the worst of either side.


What I do find, though, is that biologically protective women invariably claim to speak for all cis/natal/not-trans women and girls. It's a poor kind of feminist who dismisses the considered and reasoned views of other women. At worst, they describe us as deluded, brainwashed etc.


The first demand of the group organising this symposium, is for discussion to be evidence based. Vintage Paw has twice posted an excellent, entirely factual analysis of the proposed law change, but is consistently ignored.

How are women (even by the narrowest definition) supposed to agree on this complex issue if no one is prepared to have a reasoned discussion about facts.

Evidence has been offered of non trans men committing offenses, and of problems in America which has not implemented a change in legal identification. But no one seems interested in looking at what has actually happened in countries that have introduced self id.

And still people claim to speak for me as a woman, without being interested in speaking *to* me.