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A Woman's Place is Speaking Up in Wales

Interesting question, but one that is hard to determine as you only have the person's word for it. If a man fraudulently asserts he feels like a woman, how can that be proved. There are some cases reported in the media in US/Canada/UK of transwomen commiting violent/sexual crime against women and girls. They might not be men who genuinely feel they are women, but we can only go by what they say.
so that's a no then, thanks
 
Interesting question, but one that is hard to determine as you only have the person's word for it. If a man fraudulently asserts he feels like a woman, how can that be proved. There are some cases reported in the media in US/Canada/UK of transwomen commiting violent/sexual crime against women and girls. They might not be men who genuinely feel they are women, but we can only go by what they say.
Firstly, self id already exists. The only difference will be regarding applying for a new birth certificate. I already enter female only spaces at will, and nobody has ever asked for my birth certificate.

If someone identifies as female but then makes absolutely no differences to the way they look, or dress, then alarm bells will ring, even for trans women, after all, we are just as vulnerable.

But as I asked before, why would a man make a legal declaration that he is a woman, change pronouns and gender on documents, new name and all the issues that brings with it, including being disowned by family, being sacked, being evicted, etc. Just so he could go into a ladies' changing room, which he could do now anyway, without even bothering to disguise himself? And sexual abuse remains illegal.
This whole issue is being deliberately misrepresented in order to roll back trans rights.
 
E.g. a male-bodied person in their 20s who punches a 60 year old woman in the face.

You're being a bit disingenous to try to suggest that the organisers' conditions are to exclude any dissenting opinion, rather than to prevent the abuse and violence towards women who want to attend (for which there is plenty of recent precedent).
Sorry, I consider this a thing to be discussed among women and trans men.
 
E.g. a male-bodied person in their 20s who punches a 60 year old woman in the face.

You're being a bit disingenous to try to suggest that the organisers' conditions are to exclude any dissenting opinion, rather than to prevent the abuse and violence towards women who want to attend (for which there is plenty of recent precedent).

I had already explained that only people who shout out those who are given the mic are shown the door. It didn't prevent the trade unionist being recognised and then being targeted at a picket line.
Female trade union official ‘bullied off own union’s picket line on International Women’s Day’
 
so not anyone with a ticket can attend then
thanks for clarifying your earlier claim is wrong

As per the publicly stated right of organisers to cancel/refund tickets - which I think *any* responsible organiser or any event would state for just about any event. And also doesn't mean that anyone who has purchased a ticket has ever had it refunded.
 
This.

E.g. a male-bodied person in their 20s who punches a 60 year old woman in the face.

You're being a bit disingenous to try to suggest that the organisers' conditions are to exclude any dissenting opinion, rather than to prevent the abuse and violence towards women who want to attend (for which there is plenty of recent precedent).
 
What they actually say is more akin to "There is no such thing as trans. It can only even make sense in a world where sexist stereotypes exist."
And yet they do, and we exist.

And of course it makes sense without stereotypes unless you think hormonal and physiological differences can be abolished.
 
Firstly, self id already exists. The only difference will be regarding applying for a new birth certificate. I already enter female only spaces at will, and nobody has ever asked for my birth certificate.

If someone identifies as female but then makes absolutely no differences to the way they look, or dress, then alarm bells will ring, even for trans women, after all, we are just as vulnerable.

But as I asked before, why would a man make a legal declaration that he is a woman, change pronouns and gender on documents, new name and all the issues that brings with it, including being disowned by family, being sacked, being evicted, etc. Just so he could go into a ladies' changing room, which he could do now anyway, without even bothering to disguise himself? And sexual abuse remains illegal.
This whole issue is being deliberately misrepresented in order to roll back trans rights.

It's always interesting that there's zero attempt to engage with any of these points about how self-id already exists and that a GRC has no impact on anything.
 
This is a very interesting thread on the issue of self-id (self-id being the policy currently used as a tool to drum up hatred against trans people, specifically trans women, more widely):



I'll include it all below for those who don't want to scroll through on twitter:

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The proposed changes to the Gender Recognition Act (2004) in order to allow trans people to self-identify, without the necessity for a medical diagnosis and two-years of treatment, has unsurprisingly been fodder for TERF trolls

But it also seems to have provoked a lot of anxiety among v. reasonable women who consider themselves allies to trans people, why?

Because, these people are worried that the proposed changes will mean that *anyone* could self-identify as “trans” and wander into women’s only spaces

So, here are some secrets (they’re not secret, this information is widely available, trans people are not hiding it from you) about being trans for cis people feeling concerned about the implications of this bill

1.We’re already allowed to use the spaces that align with our gender identity

The GRA is not the piece of law that protects a trans persons right to use spaces which align with their gender identity. That’s the Equality Act (2010). We've been here the whole time.

2. You do not need a Gender Recognition Certificate to be Trans*

In fact, a GRC is about the last thing any trans person will get as part of their transition. To get a GRC you have to have been “living in role” for 2 years, and be able to demonstrate this with official documentation, most commonly a name change.

What is “living in role”? Well, it’s bureaucracy speak for presenting in your preferred gender *to everyone*. That means not just coming out to a few friends, but changing your name by deed poll or statutory declaration, presenting full time in your preferred gender, etc.

So, that means, anyone obtaining a GRC will already have been known by their preferred name and pronouns for at least 2 years, they may also have been receiving medical treatment for that amount of time – sometimes longer

That’s right, you don’t necessarily need an official name change to begin medical intervention

So really, *and here’s the kicker*, to be a trans person in the UK, all you really have to do is *self-identify as trans*

Mostly, it goes a little bit like this: Me: I’m trans, I’ve been feeling this for a while and I’m finally ready to do something about it. Please refer me to a specialist. My GP: Okay.

*waits* *waits some more* GIC: So, you’re Trans* – tell me about your experience. Let’s check in in 6 months. *six months later* GIC: Still trans? Okay, if you want we’ll prescribe some hormones. Me: *starts hormones*

BUT, some trans people can’t or don’t want to take hormones, or receive medical interventions, that doesn’t make them any less trans, or make their gender identity any less valid.

Quick aside: I do wonder how cis people think trans people *become* trans if not by self-identifying. This isn’t Hogwarts, we don’t get picked out of a hat, or have a letter fall from the sky. My GRC didn’t just arrive in the post one day and then I sprouted a beard and was trans

For some people, myself included, it isn’t easy to get those official bits of paper the GRC needs you to have had for 2 years. Changing your name officially is very easy to do, but if you’re financially dependent on others, or have other things going on it can take a while

So many will have actually been “living in role” for a while before any of that official paperwork comes in, and may have started on treatment etc. too

Someone may have been taking hormones for several years before they get a GRC, where then do you draw the line and so, well you’re a *genuine* trans person?

3. The GRC doesn’t actually *do* very much.

It may have become apparent that I do not have a GRC, and I actually don’t need one to get by in my day-to-day life. I have a passport and driving licence both of which are in my preferred name and gender

You can apply for these as soon as your name change is official. To change the gender on your passport you also need a letter from your GP to confirm the change is likely to be permanent. Again, these are official documents you self-identify in order to get

The GRC itself really gets you very little. With a GRC you can apply to have your birth certificate changed. You also need it to change your gender with HMRC. Those are the only things I have not been able to change without a GRC

When was the last time anyone asked to see your birth certificate in daily life, let alone when you were trying to access a changing room or swim class? It doesn’t happen

It baffles me what people think they are asking for when they say trans women shouldn’t be allowed in women’s spaces. What is the test here? Are we going to have passport checks on the door?

Oh wait, I don’t need a GRC to get a passport.

The material difference this change will make to even trans peoples day-to-day existence is practically zero.

What it does make a difference to is the levels of bureaucracy, psychological stress, medicalization etc. we have to wade through, and time we have to wait, to bring all our paperwork into line and justify our existence.

4. Trans men exist.

I know its hard to believe that anyone would opt to be a man, I feel that way myself regularly, but it does happen

When cis women say they don’t want trans women in women's spaces – because the system might be abused, because they weren’t socialised along the same lines, etc. – I always wonder: does that mean they want me in there?

Or my bigger, hairier, more masculine trans brothers?

If the genitals maketh the gender then you are not just asking for trans women out, you are asking for trans men in, and in reality I don’t think that is what you want…

5. It’s much more dangerous for us than it is for you.

The first time I used the men’s room I was terrified: what if I was spotted? What if someone says something? What if I get hurt? The same fears exist for trans women.

According to Stonewall, over a third of trans people in the UK (41%) have been the victim of a hate crime in the last 12 months; more than a quarter have been the victim of domestic abuse; 1:4 have experienced homelessness.

Nearly half of all trans people (48%) avoid using public bathrooms for fear of harassment and discrimination. All these figures can be found in Stonewall’s comprehensive Trans Report

Entering a gendered space can be terrifying for a trans person, especially someone early in their transition. What they are doing is honest, and brave, and ultimately should not be a big deal. We all just want somewhere to pee.

6. Sexual harassment is illegal

That’s it really, this doesn’t need more explanation, changing the GRA will not change the fact that harassment is illegal.

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Thanks, this was an informative and interesting read.
 
Sorry, I consider this a thing to be discussed among women and trans men.
Funny that. Woman's Place does no such thing. We Need To Talk themselves, on finding themselves in a smaller venue asked men to give their places to women and I haven't heard a peep out of those men I know who had tickets about "the unfairness of it". They were only glad to give up their tickets for women given the circs.
 
Firstly, self id already exists. The only difference will be regarding applying for a new birth certificate. I already enter female only spaces at will, and nobody has ever asked for my birth certificate.

If someone identifies as female but then makes absolutely no differences to the way they look, or dress, then alarm bells will ring, even for trans women, after all, we are just as vulnerable.

But as I asked before, why would a man make a legal declaration that he is a woman, change pronouns and gender on documents, new name and all the issues that brings with it, including being disowned by family, being sacked, being evicted, etc. Just so he could go into a ladies' changing room, which he could do now anyway, without even bothering to disguise himself? And sexual abuse remains illegal.
This whole issue is being deliberately misrepresented in order to roll back trans rights.


People keep conflating keeping women and girls' rights protected to being anti-trans or rolling back their rights. The two are not the same.
 
As per the publicly stated right of organisers to cancel/refund tickets - which I think *any* responsible organiser or any event would state for just about any event. And also doesn't mean that anyone who has purchased a ticket has ever had it refunded.
Considering that someone recently tried to get me sacked from work for using the word TERF on social media, I think I'm on some sort of TERF list, oh, and my Twitter account is blocked by the new anti trans block list which is supposed to be for "transactivists" who are abusive ( I'm neither). So I'd be very surprised if I'm let in. I'm minded to test it out.
 
Should ask that of those who think it will impact negatively as so far they've not said.

Yes, I'm interested to hear both sides. I've heard some of the TERF claims which have been pretty far-fetched. But, equally, I think there are some on the other side who are deliberately underestimating their effects.
 
Actually, no, I'm tired. If you want, you can explain to me why you think they're the same.

As I said earlier, I'm not here for a big debate. I came on to advertise an event. The arguments we're all putting forward here are the same as those on the other, now closed thread. Do we really need to re-hash it all? For what and whose benefit? I, for one, do not have the energy. That's not a personal slight to you or anyone who disagrees with my position. I'm not saying people can't comment, but I might not be able to respond, as there's only so much I can take on. I find it exhausting and distressing.
 
Should ask that of those who think it will impact negatively as so far they've not said.

Nor am I getting into that debate with you here. If I thought I'd get anywhere with you and many others here I would. But I reckon the only thing that will lead to is the thread getting binned. I've said most of what I had to say in the matter elsewhere. I've learnt much more since. I think it's much too important for women that they know a meeting of this nature is being held where they are welcome regardless of their position on trans "inclusion" and where they can still regard themselves as "cis" if they want to but be able to say "But we're different in many ways and that needs to be reflected in the law and by the courts and wider society" if they, unlike me, think that transwomen are women.
 
Just coming back to these points.

"Male-bodied people, whether they identify as women or not, haven't been allowed into these spaces since the rights were established." Genitalia hasn't been a defining factor of whether trans people are considered their preferred gender or not, as explained in the long thread I quoted above. Self-id already happens because it is, practically speaking, the only thing that can happen unless we deny the existence of trans people and their right to exist in public life altogether. Obtaining a GRC doesn't change this.

"It is, of course, a different matter for TW who have transitioned." What do you mean by 'transitioned'? You mean genital surgery, yes? That's not what transition means. Transition can involve genital surgery for some people, but it doesn't have to. Transition encompasses a range of things, and perhaps might broadly fall under the umbrella of 'presenting full-time as their preferred gender.' Commonly this will include name changes and hormone treatment, but as explained in the thread I posted some people are unable to undergo hormone treatment for a variety of reasons so even this isn't necessarily the absolute marker of transition. What constitutes transition will differ from person to person depending on their circumstances. But by no means is genital surgery the point which must be crossed in order for a person to magically be transitioned.

I'm sorry you find this tiring shygirl - I expect many trans women do too when they're constantly having to defend their existence.

If you do find that you have the energy to respond, I'd appreciate you taking a look at the post I've quoted here, since I think you missed it earlier.
 
I'm sorry you find this tiring shygirl - I expect many trans women do too when they're constantly having to defend their existence.

If you do find that you have the energy to respond, I'd appreciate you taking a look at the post I've quoted here, since I think you missed it earlier.

'... bad-faith requests for evidence, or repeated questions, the purpose of which is not clarification or elucidation, but rather an attempt to derail a discussion or to wear down the patience of one's opponent. The troll who uses this tactic also uses fake civility....'
 
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